SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to RPG Blokes. Today we're following Little Mark's

Introduction to Mark's Mission

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mission to win a golden demon in Milwaukee. Yes, he's flying to America. So a panel of strangers can judge one miniature. So in this episode, and we're focused on why he's doing it and what's pushed him to look beyond the UK scene. What's frustrated in previous attempts? What does he actually hope to achieve? And what would count as success or disappointment? And we talk about the model he's chosen too.

Frustration with the UK Scene

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Hi Mark. Hello. So you mentioned in our interview when we did the miniatures episode, you had this idea to go to America and to go to the game stay there. And during the course of that interview, it became quite obvious that you seemed to be a little bit frustrated with the UK scene and potentially had seen somebody else gain success and recognition by taking their work somewhere else in the world. And you thought, why the hell not? I mean, is that is that where it comes from, your frustration with the UK golden demon scene?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Kind of, yeah. So Games Workshop's been been in the UK since what, 76? I mean, they've been running Golden Demon since I think 78, I think, if my memory's right. In the UK, there's quite a lot of very good painters. Because America's so big, it's only generally the people in the state that it can attract. It's a better chance of getting somewhere, I think. Plus, you're not against the same people because flying over to America, obviously, getting a hotel, doing all that, takes money and time.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Even if they were there, their work wouldn't be as recognizable. So perhaps they wouldn't get the same advantage.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, exactly that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

You know, I don't know how comfortable you are sort of digging out the UK golden demon scene. Are you comfortable with saying what you feel about that and the disadvantage? You know, do you obviously think you're as good as these other guys that are winning, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Or no, I I don't know. I'd be hubris to turn around and say, I think I'm as good as them. Golden Demon used to be the single model on itself, how well you can paint that, but now it's more about the theme, if that makes any sense. The the the entire model, so the base, the the story, and some of the pay people that have won Golden Demons in America, they've told a brilliant story, but their painting's not that clever. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's bad, but compared to these people that spend you know a thousand hours painting a sword and stuff like that, it it's all it's all story-based. So the models I'm entering are story-based. So I've got a Blood Bowl scene where there's two very famous star players in there racing after each other. I'm gonna paint this very famous um Knight's Panther model, which we mean you remember from being kids.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Yeah, so not just one figure, you're taking across the two of those and one additional.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

No, a few more. No, so there's there's there's gonna be six categories, and I'll enter uh I'll try and enter as many as I can. At the moment, I've got two entries completed. So the Blood Bowl one and the 40k one, this Warhammer model, uh, which is an old world model, and then I'm gonna do

Models and Categories

SPEAKER_01 2:54

a Lord of the Rings model, I think.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Okay. We'll talk about those models again in a bit more detail later in the podcast. But for now, Jess, just talking about the UK scene, you're reasoning really for giving this a go. Do you feel that you're a disadvantage when entering into the UK Golden Demon?

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yeah, because like I said, there's seven Slayer Sword winners, and they all talk to each other. I know they talk to each other, because I've been at a Golden Demon event having entered seeing them talking to each other. And they they're friendly, they're not nasty. I'm not saying they're nasty people, but the point I'm trying to make is like imagine entering Formula One for the first time, and in front of you there's seven teams that have all won the Formula One championship, and then you're a brand new bloke. It'll be it'll be nine impossible to win. Occasionally there are some diamonds in the rough that appear out of nowhere and just do this something that's just bonkers and they and they win. Not in Europe though. It's one of those seven people generally.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Just not happening. So Games Workshop obviously want to make it an elite thing to be a part of, being in the order of people that have won the Slayer Swordos, and then it's a closed shop. Maybe there's some balance that needs to be struck.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Like I said, the idea once you've won the Slayer Sword, that should be you done. You're one of what 28 people in the world to have won it. You could either get the honour of maybe judging the next year, or there'd be a slayer sword winner category, something that only they get to enter. Could you imagine how good, prestigious that would be to not only win the slayer sword, like a premiership of of painters. So to get into that cabinet, because it'd only be one cabinet, to get into that cabinet, you've had to have won something that only 28 people have won, and now you're in it, and you get to enter one model in it, that would elevate everything. That would just like they would go balls of the wall to try and do it.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

It would be it'd be a completely

Planning the American Trip

SPEAKER_02 4:33

different level. But in the absence of that, then take this opportunity to visit America, that's in itself something partly a holiday.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, yeah, never been to Milwaukee. Plus, my missus, she she loves to travel, get her to experience the joys of a bunch of sweaty men with Lynx Africa in a big room.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yeah, it's something you look forward to. So she's quite supportive of this then. And uh, have you got your flights booked already? Are you basing your flight bookings on whether you're happy with the figures you've eventually painted? How's that?

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Yeah, yeah, I think I think we'll leave it close to the time-like, but um you know uh there's negotiation to be to be had. Taking taking my missus to to a big room full of sweaty blokes that look at little models for a cabinet from five feet away is is a difficult sell.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Yeah, it's not the holiday of a lifetime, is it?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

It's it's not like the Maldine. It'll be it'll be good to go with there, some moral support,

The American Painting Culture

SPEAKER_01 5:17

I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

So America is different, fresh judges, fresh eyes. And you said almost hinted already, you've hinted already, it's a different painting culture, they'd be more open to a different style or different type of um submission.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

So Golden Demon over there is only run for about five to ten years.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Is this the American Golden Demons or is it the state-based Golden Demon of the American? No, it's the American Golden Demons.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

So, yeah, so exactly that. So you've your brain tells you that because it's in America, there'll be five thousand percent more people that that go there. But me and you forget how big America is. You know, like you said, you've hit the nail on the edge, it's going to be new judges with a new atmosphere in a new process. My eyesight's going, right, like all of us as we get old, and I want to give it one last chance, one last roll of the dice where I'll throw

Goals and Success Criteria

SPEAKER_01 5:58

everything at it.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

So, what is it do you want out of it? What what would be a success? You could is it possible to come back with a slayer sword from this? You'd find out at the time.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Mark, to give you an idea of slayer sword winners, the so so, like this horse that I've been painting, they would paint not only the eye, they would do the iris, then they would do the colour of the eye, and then they would shape that. Yeah?

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah, incredible.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

So that's beyond your ability, is it?

SPEAKER_01 6:20

It's not beyond my ability, but I don't think I'll be able to do it as good as they do it. Who knows? It's all to do with the judges at the time. This is a very famous piece of artwork that I'm copying, and it will get nostalgia votes. So it should get noted. What I really want to come back with is either a finalist pin, which is the step. So, like I explained beforehand, you have all the categories, they filter down to five, and those five people get a pin, and then out of those five, three get trophies.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

A finalist pin, would that be success? If you're travelling back on the plane, you're happy with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very happy, yeah. Because you've achieved that in the UK, right? So you've been to that stage in the UK. Yeah, I've got them in. Yeah, yeah. How many, how many finalist pins do you have? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Seven. Yeah. Okay. That's frustrating.

Balancing Hobby and Life

SPEAKER_02 7:02

You've never gone beyond that to the final three.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

It's because it's because I live in the real world where you live, and the painting, like any hobby, can end up consuming you. I have a job, I have a partner, I have my kids, and you've got to something's got to give. So I paint when I can now, instead of it being all consuming. And the people that do this spend thousands of hours, thousands of hours. That's their job. They they literally create these masterpieces and they get they they they have like Patreon and they have painting classes and all that sort of stuff. And I'm not at that level. I can paint just to give myself a little bit of gratitude, I can paint to a very good level quite quickly. So all the models I gave each of you took me about five hours to paint. So I can get to a relatively good level relatively quickly. It's just that step, isn't it? It's like the first division to the premiership. It's like it's just just it's a gulf.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

So I you know, I don't paint, but I would have thought after you've spent a certain amount of time on it, it's like you know, you've got nowhere to stop. But I like drawing, isn't it? There was always a point where you should have put the pencil down. That doesn't seem to apply with figure painting by the sounds of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

No, no, one of the ideas I had about the armour that I've got on this model was to paint fleur de lees like like they've been embossed into the metal. Yeah, you mentioned yeah, and I gave it a go, and my god, was it hard.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

So let's talk about the miniatures then um that you're doing. Uh, particularly you you you talk about that one with the mounted Knight's Panther on the horse more than any

Focus on the Knight Model

SPEAKER_02 8:27

of the others. Is that the most important submission that you're making? That's the that's the one that That's the one I'm putting the most effort into. It is, yeah. So describe describe that figure.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

I know we did so in the the other podcast, but that's just so there was a there was a white dwarf cover back in the 90s by John Blanche, who used to be their main artist. He's their he was their concept artist. And the model I'm re- reproducing is a typical knight on a horse rearing up on the cliff edge. And uh Knights Panther is a a a group of knights from the Weimar Fantasy Roleplay game. It was just a piece of artwork that was then reproduced by a guy called Mike McVeigh, who was the white dwarf figure painter. He converted it. I remember it being shown in White Dwarfs, it was awe-inspiring. Yeah, this is a this is a model they produce. I'm I'm modifying it ever so slightly. So in the model that you buy, the guy's looking to the left, I've got to turn his head to looking to the right, and in the in the model you buy his axe is up in the air, and I've got to make it facing downwards.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

So I've just got to get it accurate to the the image.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah, yeah, or cl closer to the image. Closer to the Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

And this is a figure you can buy now, or is it something you've had to go on eBay and find it?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

No, you can buy it. You uh it's Games Workshop's parent company or secondary company called Forge World, so it's resin models. It's available to buy. And I have dreamed of painting

The Diorama and Background

SPEAKER_01 9:37

this for years. And how long do you think you might spend on doing it? Honest guess, I'd say not under 300 hours. And like you said, you've got to learn when to stop because if I put the wrong colour on the wrong bit, or if I accidentally move the brush, say I'm painting the blue robe and I get this tiniest amount of blue on a red knee patch or something like that, and they spot it and I don't, out.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Okay. Yeah, and they they look at this with pretty detailed magnifying glass, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Well, so when you get to the fineless pins, the people are looking for what's wrong.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Yeah, okay, they already know it looks great, so then they're looking for imperfections.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yeah, correct. And the more imperfections you get, the less chance you've got of winning. So I spent about six hours trying to remove all the mould lines from this model. I'm gonna be handing it to people to get them to look at it as if they can find any mould lines. And if I've missed one and they've missed one, there's one like underneath an armpit or just on the back end of a sword, you know, or underneath a chin or something like that, out. Out.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

You've got no chance.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Nope. That's it, gone. That's the level you've got to get to.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

And you've uh spoken already about the sort of extra complications you're introducing, the flourishes, the you've spoken about the flaudalise.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Remember old armor used to have like the things that kings used to wear, they weren't exactly usable, but the in the arm they had like embossed shapes and and I and I tried to give it a go. But the problem is on the armour already, there's things already on there. It's bizarre, you've got to make them look like they flow behind the image that's on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yeah, tough, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yeah, yeah, it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Um, couldn't you file down what's on there at the moment and just sort of apply it?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yeah, I could do, I could do, but I thought that I'm not a converter, I can't convert, I know I can't. So I thought I'd lean into what's in there. Every time Games Workshop releases a model, they'd paint one from their heavy metal team. We were like very good painters. And they've painted all this armour, armour coloured, so it's all like gold, bronze, silver, and all that sort of stuff. But mine's not going to be, you know, and and that's where my flourishes are going to come in. Knights Pamphers have a blue tinge to their armour. I'm really tempted to try and add just the tiniest amount of blue to it. That's that's something I might play with. If I put that ink on it and it doesn't work, back to the beginning. All the way back to the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Have you bought more than one of these for the five years? I could buy another one, but I'd have to start from trash, yeah. Yeah, you wouldn't ever have time.

unknown 11:46

No.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Uh what about the Dia Ramo? Have you got any other elements you're gonna be producing with it?

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Well, yes, Mark, I have.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

So you'll be able to show me, but yeah, for the purpose of the podcast, a good description of what you're about to do.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

It's not been opened yet, but can you see that?

SPEAKER_02 12:00

It looks like a Klingfilm sealed chair.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Yeah, bang on. The bottom of the plymph, this bit here that I'm pointing out, the block at the bottom.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

The horse is gonna go on that at an angle. The background. I'm gonna I'm gonna hand paint the the scene on the back to like the clouds and the stars and all that.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Oh wow, so it really is very, very similar to that white wolf cover, the old John Blanche artwork. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

I need I need the horse coming off at an angle, so he's gonna come off at an angle down here. I might cut into the wood a little bit so it's like a chipboard. This goes back to the point of what I told you about America, it's about the story. So if I put the effort technically, here's here's a catch 22 for you. Technically, they state on the website that the stand is not counted in the grading of the painted model. But I can tell you now that it is the stand that sets you out from everyone else.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

It sets you out, but they they're not allowed to look for imperfections in the stand when it comes to the marking. That's what they say, but I know that's a lie. So yeah. Oh fuck, so there's a lot of work then to get that part right.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah, yeah. Once I put the horse on the stand and then I put the knight on it, I've then got to shade the inside of the legs to make it look like they're shading in there, obviously, from where the horse is standing. There's a lot involved.

Risks and Expectations

SPEAKER_02 13:13

So I don't want to be too negative for it for this, because it's a fantastic idea and we're all behind you. But what is the real risk here? What would be worst case scenario?

SPEAKER_01 13:23

I don't even get a pin. I don't get anywhere. These Slayer Sword winners, they sometimes end and they don't even place. They don't even place in the top five, let alone anywhere else.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

When they go outside of their original territory.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, yeah. So it's it's all it's all a risk. I might not. I might not place anywhere, but I've won my fair share of competitions externally from Games Workshop ones. So I've got the ability. It's what the judge is looking for on that day, yeah, and I have yet to see this model painted, which means, I guess, in theory, there's a chance of there being ten of them.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Oh, other people might have the same idea.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah, yeah. There's the catch, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Okay. How long has the model been available now recently?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Uh yeah, a while. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

So it's not just like it's come out in the last 12 months in which kind of likely.

Additional Models and Projects

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Uh the other things that you're putting in, you said you're doing some Blood Bowl stuff, and that's where most of your wins have been, isn't it, within the Blood Bowl community?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yeah, it goes back to that argument that I told you that paint that you enjoy, and I love the game of Blood Bowl. I I've got I've got uh in my hand right now, there is a new edition of the game, and I have I've got it. My daughter's play, I've taught my daughters how to play Blood Bowl and things like that, so we have some fun with that. Because Blood Bowl models are a little bit comedy. There's two-star players in the game, you must remember this. There was the the human team called the Rikelin Reavers, and there was Griff Oberworld and the mighty Zug. And the idea I've got is in this in this little diorama I've made, Zug is punching his way through to let Griff who's behind him score.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Okay, I can I can imagine it because I've seen a lot of Blood Bowl artwork, and quite often there's those kind of uh scenes that they that people draw. Uh it's Lord of the Rings. Which Lord of the Rings figure are you thinking of doing?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

I don't know, because the Lord of the Rings models are um smaller size. I mean it doesn't sound a lot from 35 to 28, but it is.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Is there a game that Games Workshop sell for the Lord of the Rings or is it just the figures?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

No, they did Lord of the Rings, they did the Lord of the Rings game, Middle Earth, yeah. Yeah, okay. They did that for a while. So there really are some nice models. I just gotta figure out which one to do, really. And then there's a new game coming out called Dark Quest, which was if you remember WyomerQuest.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Um, and they're they're bringing out they're bringing out a new game of that, uh, a new version. And what I'm really tempted to do is paint all the heroes. So you have four you have five heroes.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

What category would they go into?

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Open. So that's really risky, that is. So the open category is do what you want.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Yeah, how you how you're gonna be taking it? Is it gonna be taken in your luggage or are you sending it?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

No, it's gonna be in it's gonna have to in hand luggage, and the best thing the best way I think about transporting it is taking a like a clear tubware box and turning it 90 degrees so the models are standing up in it. That's my that's my plan. If it goes in the hole and you smash the pieces, that's the end of it, isn't it? That's the end of everything. So I'm gonna have to take in hand luggage, I think, get the interesting looks from the customs people as they scan it into these new models going

Wrapping Up Mark's Journey

SPEAKER_01 16:00

through. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

It's great to get a good idea of what this is all about. And when you're at the event, hopefully, and perhaps you could record something for us there. We don't need to be live streamed if you could just take some pictures and maybe do a little self-interview or something, or we could let people know how you did. Yeah, before a pilgrimage, isn't it? Is what it is. Yeah, it is, yeah. That's it for today. Little Mark's golden demon journey. So I think we've set the stage nicely. Uh, brilliant. Well, thanks, Mark. So we'll catch up with you again soon on this. Yep, no problems. Okay, mate. Cheers. Bye.