Mark: 0:00

Welcome to the RPG Blokes podcast, for middle-aged newcomers and veterans alike. Today we're diving into a classic tabletop debate. Battle mapping versus theatre of the mind. Do you need a map and miniatures to bring combat to life, or can you run everything in your head with just a few words and imagination? We'll be breaking down the pros and cons of both approaches, looking at when to use each and discussing which systems and which types of player benefit the most from one style over the other. Introducing the RPG blokes. John. Likes to read. A lot. And for someone like me that struggles to finish a book, it's very intimidating. I've seen him read more books in the last five minutes than I've read, well, ever. Somebody take that off him. Stephen, once insulted the entire population of Wales by suggesting Hasbro invented the Red Dragon, which is crazy because we all know that was Games Workshop.

Stephen: 1:13

Yeah, true. We'll fight over that.

Mark: 1:17

Barry, who will go to any lengths to achieve a long rest? In D&D, that is the eight-hour period of time you can spend resting that gives you all your powers back. He'll fight tooth and nail for the perfect resting spot, often sacrificing other people's characters along the way. With Barry at your table, be warned, you'll always be dying for a good night's sleep.

Stephen: 1:38

Oh, wow.

Barry: 1:39

Oh, wow. Puntastic.

Mark: 1:42

It was very funny.

Barry: 1:44

Sorry, can I just quickly circle back to the whole insult in the people of Wales? I seem to recall you saying that Welsh people didn't have feelings.

Stephen: 1:51

Well, that's done it. It's got me off the hook at least.

Mark: 1:54

I don't remember that.

Barry: 1:56

Oh, you can see the podcast, Bob.

Stephen: 2:00

That's why we don't have any Welsh listeners. Or do we?

Mark: 2:03

Well, not only more.

Jon: 2:05

Don't insult people who have mastery of longbows.

Mark: 2:10

So we're talking about a new player coming into the game. Which style would you think would work better for a new player? As a DM, which do you think would engage that player better? Is it an individual thing or how would you make a choice?

Stephen: 2:22

Probably battle mapping if you're right. Because as far as if they're used to playing board games, definitely battle mapping would be better for them. Depends how much they want to use their imagination. I think it's not so true that if you do get miniatures on the board, you kind of lose your imagination. Because I think it can just spark it as well. I think using miniatures to a certain degree, you don't have to worry too much about the, if you don't want to, the distances and stuff. You can just use them as just a generalisation of where people are. It does help people understand what's happening. Because sometimes if people phase out, And if they're not keeping track, then you haven't got a clue what's happening, which is a disadvantage.

Mark: 2:56

So as a new player, it can be, I think, quite amazing. You might be amazed by the fact that a DM is describing something to everybody and expecting everybody to have exactly the same idea of what's going on in their head. That's not the way it is. So it somehow works, doesn't it? Even though the DM is discussing and describing things that sometimes one player might interpret differently in their mind or not even hear in the same way in a loud environment, somehow there are very few arguments when playing Theatre of the Mind.

Stephen: 3:27

It makes you concentrate a lot more. I think you have to engage a lot more. If you're a player, if you're Theatre of the Mind, you have to really be a lot more on it and following the action a lot more closely. Where's battleboarding? You can probably go to the toilet and come back and look where the position of the characters are.

Mark: 3:42

So it's more challenging for a player.

Stephen: 3:44

Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, yeah, certainly.

Track 3: 3:46

Yeah, I mean, if they've come from, say, Zombicide, they're going to be used to having it laid out. Zombicide is a brilliant sort of mishmash of board and tactical. It will encourage you to pay attention to what your weapons are capable of range-wise, diameter of bursts in case of grenades, fireballs, whatever it is you're using. Normally, when I'm reffing, I'll go narrative on Wednesday. I'm playing D&D and I'm going to be reffing it soon. The ref with that does an amazing job and we use a battle board. It's rolled out. He does a reasonable sketch at the time. We use figures and, yeah, it really works. I can't be bothered. if i'm reffing i'll go with the narrative but once or twice i've been caught short uh when i'm running stuff online and again i normally go narrative if if it's a printed scenario occasionally i've put up a map if it's in the book i've done a pdf and put that up but we don't normally bother i think it depends on types of players and what the situations are yeah.

Mark: 5:05

You tailor that to the to the player do you think that there's a right way of doing this or you you're not really.

Track 3: 5:11

Strong on one way or the other i i don't think you need a battle board for every encounter if it's a big one if you've got a big group especially if you've got a mix of capabilities if they're all melee fighters yeah you can put a handful of coins or counters down and show if people have got figures that's great that shows attachment um and it gives them that extra bit of immersion and again i like them if they're there, But overall, probably a mix and match. If you're doing online, there's a lot of really good systems, but not everyone's computers can run them. I think I've mentioned this before. Mine was an absolute clanker. Everyone else had a great time, and I was still waiting for the first page to load up.

Mark: 6:01

So what would you say the advantages of Theatre of the Mind? You're here to sell me Theatre of the Mind, and if I am only used to battle boarding, and that's what I'm expecting, The additional challenge of being asked to imagine things in the same way as, you know, and share that joint imaginative space, it could be quite challenging.

Track 3: 6:23

I think I picked it up better when I started riffing Werewolf, because you're not just doing visual, you're also accounting for things like the scent and the feel of things. m nations and if you can describe to someone the feel of the the ground on their paws you're not going to get that in an old game you're not going to make those efforts if you are battleboarding the same event the same the same encounter it's less likely isn't it so when you're running a battle board game you tend to just yeah drop back into game i mean yeah we are a visual species but if you can bring in those extra details other people the players will pick up on that and responding kind i've found so it will take it up that extra level um if you're aware of something down the corridors a lava pit that will have a certain aroma that might carry on the wind and it will give them that hint of a warning of something ahead you're.

Mark: 7:28

Getting those things added to your experience here in a more imaginative way I think if you're providing the encounter as a purely imaginative theatre of the mind experience Barry you, know you mostly play we mostly play D&D and so that's done with battleboarding, We don't often go into the theatre of the mind with those things now, do we? But what do you feel is the difference for you as a player? What marks one out from the other and which do you prefer?

Barry: 7:54

So I've played both. I've played a few kind of mini campaigns and one-shots and stuff that have very much been theatre of the mind. When we were COVID times and we were playing online, a lot of the stuff we did there, we didn't bother with the extra pieces of technology. It was theatre of the mind and I really, really enjoyed them. But I think generally speaking, I prefer battle balls. But I think what John said is absolutely right. Not every encounter requires a battle ball. if you you know it was one of the things that our um most we've just finished the campaign but the guy that's been dming us up until very it was one of the things that he was very good at um if you were just getting into some kind of random barb rule with a bunch of commoners who'd got a bit lippy you weren't getting miniatures out because he knew it was going to be but by the time we got the miniatures out drawn a map the encounter was over um i do like i like i love miniatures and And, you know, I nearly always buy a miniature for a new character. And we've got a guy at our club, Paint Monkey, who will happily paint that up for you and make it look stunningly beautiful.

Mark: 8:52

So you're bringing in another element to it, really. So these are costs. Well, you don't have any cost, do you, when it's purely your imagination? I mean, you're having a miniature, you're having the terrain and other things.

Barry: 9:02

Miniatures are a relatively inexpensive cost. I mean, I'll generally speak in play like, I don't know, five, less than a tenner for a miniature. And I'll be using that, if it's a long campaign, I will be using that miniature for 15 months. Yes, of course, it's an expense and you could, but you know, you can still battle board without like spending money on me. If you just want a physical representation, we have quite a lot of random miniatures and it's like, okay, yeah, we haven't got a miniature for whatever this creature is. But here's a little miniature of a rat, that will do.

Stephen: 9:33

Yeah i mean i suppose you can use hybrid of that thing you can do some theater to your mind with kind of just whatever you've got in front of you um which is a good way of doing things or if you want to go full apply all the rules to your movement and everything that makes it very much more ball gaming and very rigid i suppose what i'm saying i suppose if you more theater to the mind or using both you can have an idea of where you are with your coins or your makeshift the figures and then you can describe a lot what's happening not worry too much about people's position, ask them where they want to be rather than this is where exactly you are and maybe more sort of like flow with it. But it is more effort, I think, to do that.

Barry: 10:08

I think it's interesting because if you're bringing things like ranged attacks and stuff like that into it, like for me, I find that quite hard to reconcile with theory of the mind because it's like...

Mark: 10:19

Sometimes you just ignore it you just say.

Barry: 10:21

Where do.

Stephen: 10:22

You want to be.

Barry: 10:23

Yeah and.

Stephen: 10:24

Then ask them that's.

Barry: 10:25

Where you are whereas i like it and once you've got into combat in like every decision that you're making changes the board in some way it's something that i enjoy and it's like you said earlier on like if if you know if someone leaves the room and then comes back and they can just look at it but sometimes i leave the room to go to the loo i come back and i got the out there, where did that come from put that there exactly but at least you can.

Mark: 10:49

Work it out I mean.

Barry: 10:50

You can look at.

Mark: 10:50

The state of the board.

Barry: 10:51

After maybe your attention has been.

Mark: 10:53

Lost with Theatre of the Mind you've got to be there all the time.

Barry: 10:56

And also if you like.

Mark: 10:57

Miniatures miniatures don't work with Theatre of the Mind at all I don't think never played a game where you have a you're playing without a board and you've got a miniature there in front of you yeah.

Stephen: 11:05

I think you just have it vague you don't need.

Barry: 11:08

Squares you just have it there and draw a bit.

Stephen: 11:10

Of this this is a forest this is you this is just a vague idea and it does help it does help with the theater of mind to know roughly where they are just to just help them.

Barry: 11:19

The memory like one of the things i love when um and you were really good at this and um ollie was really good at this um the the when you're in combat even if you're battle boarding like if someone does really well or really badly you don't just go oh that was a success or a failure it's like you added like scene details to it so you know your your failure was you know you would you would give away that it ended up being comedic or your success. You might even say to me, I want you to explain how you see that paying out. You'd still give people an opportunity to role play and use theatre of the mind whilst you're battleboarding.

Mark: 11:58

Yeah i just asked you this barrage you think that battle maps make certain character abilities which i've already talked about more more useful.

Barry: 12:07

I would say i don't know about more useful but certainly more manageable and more easy to understand it's like i i've talked a lot about the warlock i love playing a warlock i love that range spell it's a pew pew pew pew pew pew um i will be conscious of, immediately conscious of range so it's like you know i'm i'm thinking right well you know my guy needs to get up there or or back there or whatever it is in order to be able to use the thing that he's really good at.

Mark: 12:34

So you're thinking about your abilities and.

Barry: 12:36

How they work.

Mark: 12:36

With within the within the combat far more.

Barry: 12:39

Yeah and i think and i think everyone else who's involved in that combat is with the exception maybe of a barbarian who's just spinning around with an axe and doing rather well thank you very much plants himself in one place and never moves yeah it wouldn't.

Mark: 12:50

Make any difference to him whatsoever.

Barry: 12:51

Whether he.

Mark: 12:52

Was uh if the end.

Barry: 12:53

Of the mine or battle mapping whatever it is he's just.

Mark: 12:55

There isn't he just eating.

Barry: 12:56

Things again again i just i love playing a barbarian really do yeah and for when you're playing a character like that god damn do you look forward to the combat yeah.

Track 3: 13:07

But again with the the ring you'd not you're not a static fighter you you're not.

Barry: 13:11

I mean they can tank but they're not a yep sword and board no no they're very mobile agile yeah yeah yeah And again, that's one of the reasons that I like miniatures. I like to, you know, and I like to kind of, like to physically see your progress, especially if like, you know, the encounter, the point of the encounter is to advance, you know, and I like seeing that you've started all the way back here and gradually your miniatures have moved nearer and nearer to the thing that you're trying to get to, that these monsters are trying to stop you from getting to.

Track 3: 13:46

I like that. It's a good withdrawal for you.

Mark: 13:47

Would you say, John, that theatre of the mind would give players more freedom?

Track 3: 14:13

I kind of like a mix on that. As long as people know where they are and what's going on. It comes in with things like explosives. Again, I'm going futuristic, not D&D. Okay, fireball, the old standby. If you're in a corridor or a lightning bolt, there's certain effects that will happen in a certain area. And if you've described a narrow corridor, that lightning bolt's going to have a hell of a time.

Mark: 14:42

It's less difficult as a DM to get out of it, isn't it? Whereas in reality, in a battle map, quite often it's very hard to get that perfect situation where that lightning bolt is going to do exactly that. But in the narrative sense...

Track 3: 14:56

Again, you can bring in your character's abilities with that. So a smart character or a perceptive character will see the right spot to place something. and that can come from the stuff you the film tropes where uh someone can shoot an arrow at a rope or something like that which you can do in these games and snap something to get an effect sometimes it'll be a narrative one other times it will block something off or cause something else is.

Mark: 15:27

Always going to give you something back for a creative action.

Track 3: 15:30

Like that so with theater of the mind you're far more likely.

Mark: 15:34

To be coming up with actions.

Track 3: 15:35

Yeah it's not all about the the creatures stats and abilities uh if you don't factor in something without being maybe a slave to it uh some battleboarding can restrict your options which is what it's there for i guess but.

Mark: 15:52

But none of us dislike board games quite clearly if you're doing battle mapping it feels more like a board game.

Track 3: 15:58

Not a lot playing.

Mark: 15:59

Game if you want to be purist about it playing in a purist sense would you say that too do you think something is lost on the narrative and imaginative yeah if you can play it.

Stephen: 16:11

Uh to the letter of the law and apply all the laws to the to what you're doing in like a dnd game if you use all the rules of range and movement and everything yeah it can become very rigid and certainly using that um narrative for theater of the mind can definitely free you doing that you could yeah you can certainly if you've got to be clued in and you've got to be quite on it to come up with stuff and if you're you're that sort of player that wants to do it you can certainly enhance your survival chances and make things happen and it becomes more cinematic I guess things kind of go to and fro from you to other players and it can inspire other players and you can bring something in that no one thought about like you know climbing that tree that wasn't described in the first place or you know you can stop as a player you can use the environment a bit more so.

Mark: 16:56

Yeah you've got more freedom to act.

Stephen: 16:59

I think so to.

Mark: 17:00

Go into to reverse that would you say that battle boarding makes the game more meta it encourages meta play.

Stephen: 17:09

It kind of suits some games because some games are kind of your power of your player and applying your skills and everything you've got onto a battle board to do the best that you can. I find something quite good about that when sort of like playing D&D, it's nice to be able to apply what's written down and apply that into actual reality on the actual battle board.

Mark: 17:31

It's one of the things D&D is very good at. Yeah, it's something that, even though I prefer theater of the mind and the more narrative style to play, I can say with this game, I can take of it what it is and enjoy it immensely. I think that it's not quite the same.

Stephen: 17:44

You can certainly become quite powerful by applying all your abilities and applying it to a battle board. And you can certainly control a battle board by being quite clued in that respect as well.

Barry: 17:52

Well, and that's one of the things that I really like about it is that just at a certain point or multiple certain points throughout your game and campaign, the kind of, like the game changes. and it physically changes as well and the atmosphere changes and there's work and admin to be done that like combat kind of, that for me helps combat to become like an event, like when someone says, right, miniatures and we go and get little boxes of miniatures and stuff like that and then your DM will roll out a battle board and start doing a little drawing and I'm sitting there at that moment going, and I'm like rubbing my hands together, right, let's go, mother of a woman, motherfuckers and and but it changes it like you said as well they're like we you know you can you cannot be you know especially if you're a new player it's the time where you have equal billing to every other player and your levels of imagination and commitment to role play, don't negatively affect that i think that's a really important thing about battle board because the dm will literally go it's your turn and you have to and and but yeah i i it's a new.

Mark: 19:03

Player it's less uh less intimidating.

Barry: 19:06

Yeah i think.

Stephen: 19:07

It separates the game out of it doesn't between it delineates.

Barry: 19:10

Between combat.

Stephen: 19:11

And actual role play it makes two different.

Barry: 19:12

Styles of game which people like and you can still role play in that i mean i absolutely love playing a swashbuckler rogue and like some of the stuff that you can do in combat is very role or you know it's like the um i can't remember what it's called it's it's it you can insult someone so much they are so enraged with you that they have disadvantage when they attack anyone else but you yeah something like that yeah love it absolutely love it but that brings an element of role play into, the combat side of things and you know i don't i quite like the you know the the the corny quip you know in in the middle of combat it's the one-liner the one-liner absolutely and if i was someone.

Track 3: 19:58

Like that if you can actually come up with something i'll probably give you an.

Barry: 20:01

Answer rather than just let the dice do the work i mean mine are really corny but if i run someone through with a rapier i will turn to like another character and go you got the point yeah, but again and this is another thing i'm going to talk about this when you get amazing roles good dm like i i use a phrase like especially if you've if you're rolling to um avoid something i'll be like yeah matrix that shit yeah because it's that scene in the matrix where keanu reeves is impossibly moving and it's like yeah stuff like that again you can role play that stuff, during battle boarding you.

Mark: 20:42

Still find that that's possible the dm has to really be on board with that rather than this is your.

Barry: 20:46

Turn this is your two minutes move on i'm on my i mean i'll say as well i've said to dms listen can i have a bonus action it might not even be my turn they'll go what is it and i go i thought something really insulting to say and of course you can like a good dm will let that happen yeah uh so which.

Mark: 21:02

One is faster would you say if uh not that being fast is important, but maybe it is sometimes with the bigger groups and you're waiting for your turn. There's a pretty significant difference sometimes, isn't it, between the two?

Track 3: 21:17

I don't think that's got a thing in...

Stephen: 21:20

Nah.

Track 3: 21:21

I mean, yeah, set up for a battle board, now that's a different thing, but for playing it.

Stephen: 21:26

You've still got to go through people's initiatives, don't you? You can ask each other what you're doing. I don't think that really changed and they've got to roll the dice and they've got to have an outcome.

Track 3: 21:32

I suppose it might speed it up in that players can already see where they are and what they're doing.

Barry: 21:36

That was exactly what I was about to say. I think people reach their decisions a bit quicker when you have the visual stimuli. I think, you know, everyone knows exactly where they are. Everyone knows exactly what their movement is. Do you know what I mean? I think if you've got the battle board out.

Mark: 21:50

I think it's faster battle board. And sometimes when I'm DMing Theatre of the Mind, I can get caught up on a character and suddenly realise that there's six seconds that they're meant to be spending in the combat round because they're not actually in combat.

Stephen: 22:01

Oh, they're trying to narrate stuff.

Mark: 22:02

It's taken up a lot of time.

Stephen: 22:03

Yeah, yeah.

Mark: 22:03

Yeah, and you're thinking, well, actually, you're probably two minutes ahead here, which means this fight's finished. But that doesn't make sense. But you don't get that so much, I think, with battleboarding. I think it becomes a little bit more, you can see the meta side of it, and everyone has their turn. For me, I think it does work a bit faster, but then set up against the time it takes to set up the battleboard and get it off and running.

Track 3: 22:28

I suppose ultimately it depends on the groups. Some will prefer it, some won't.

Barry: 22:33

And I say this a lot, and you guys will have more knowledge of this, but I'm assuming that systems lend themselves one way or the other as well.

Stephen: 22:42

For speed and something.

Mark: 22:43

Yeah, to each method. D&D, I think, is a battleboarding game.

Barry: 22:46

It's a battleboarding game. Great, great.

Mark: 22:48

Definitely, yeah. So you'd prefer to play a D&D combat with battlematically?

Stephen: 22:51

I think so, yeah. Yeah, because D&D combats can be quite complicated as well. And I think that's one thing between fear to the mind over battle mapping is that as a DM, you can kind of lose track of where your monsters are and how many hit points they've got. So with the battle mapping and D&D, if you've got quite a large battle, it's a lot easier to just keep track of everything.

Mark: 23:11

Other games try and be that, but the system isn't good enough really to work. I don't think like Warhammer, for instance, the role-playing. it does have a way of battleboarding but we've never done it and it's clunky and it doesn't make a lot of.

Track 3: 23:25

Sense you just drift straight into.

Mark: 23:27

The other mind.

Track 3: 23:28

It just comes out when stuff first came out everything was what five or ten foot squares so you'd have the map might be written you know the curves and things but on the overlay you would have your grid, to it might help it might restrict you can ignore it that's.

Stephen: 23:45

Why they did it I imagine.

Track 3: 23:46

Yeah or hexes for outdoors, wasn't it? Hexes were the...

Stephen: 23:51

And it's based on a battle game with Warhammer.

Mark: 23:53

Yeah, they were never able to sell the figures through the role-playing game and that's why Games Workshop knocked it on their head back in the day because they just couldn't find a way of selling figures to people playing role-playing games. But it does work.

Barry: 24:05

No, but this is... The problem with that is it's a completely different market, isn't it? Because as a player, you need a miniature, but that's not sustainable for someone at warhammer who need to sell like 500, to everyone yeah you know i i like i say i get i generally speaking get a miniature for, every character that i have but i don't and i'll get i'll get our resident paint monkey to paint them and he always does an amazing job and i'm always incredibly grateful but when that character is done i just put it in our communal i don't know if you.

Stephen: 24:37

Have a paint monkey i just want to I'll make that cleaner, I'll just imagine his monkey.

Barry: 24:43

That monkey could play better than me that is literally his discord hand, just got a picture coming up every now and then I'll see a name because obviously one of the cool things okay this is off paced but I'm going to go for it one of the really cool things about role playing games is that you get to pick a name for yourself do you know what I mean that's quite one of the things I really like about our discord group is I've known people quite a while and it's still been months before I've worked out who the hell they are on Discord because everyone's names bear no relation to their own names or even their...

Stephen: 25:19

Well, I guess that's the purpose sometimes.

Barry: 25:20

Isn't it?

Mark: 25:21

Does Theatre of the Mind lead to more arguments?

Track 3: 25:24

I suppose it could. In my experience, it hasn't, but I've got a really good group. So most of the time, narrative, and it's worked wonderfully well so far.

Mark: 25:34

Everybody's patient with misunderstandings and if you're willing to accept that they didn't read that situation in quite the way that you described it, you would allow that?

Track 3: 25:43

A couple of occasions I've... said the wrong thing and i've i've backtracked i've told them look i'm sorry guys i'm i messed up we'll go back it's never more than you know one or two actions or something so it's not hugely problematic but again it's that interaction that there's a certain level of trust so.

Mark: 26:04

There's a part of me that feels quite i don't know geeky or sad when if i'm worrying about range i just hate worrying about range well.

Stephen: 26:12

That's where the arguments do come in.

Track 3: 26:14

All it has to.

Stephen: 26:15

Do with range which.

Track 3: 26:15

Battleboarding does completely eradicate yeah because you are where you are yeah as much as it pains me to admit it steven is 100 right that is that is that is one of the i wasn't there well i thought you were but i i thought i was further back i thought someone else was in between you're still worrying about fucking range aren't you i mean it is that's it range is such a thing but no no because you're not you're not worried you're not worrying about it you're like it's it's black and white yeah what is the range on that item 65 10 or is someone between me and him that's another argument i don't i thought yeah between me and him i i didn't know he could just have a run at me but i don't want it to be black and white because that means people get the ump when you know that you think but it's disagreements when we remember people that rely upon black and white ranges when they play theater of the mind they just don't get it they can't factor in you say what range ain't that important no you tell me where you are i'll.

Mark: 27:12

Tell you whether you can hit it and you know they're saying well i would have been able to do my range is this it's like how can you don't know where you're.

Track 3: 27:18

Standing therein.

Stephen: 27:20

Lies the arguments.

Track 3: 27:20

How do you deal how do you deal with a gradient say it goes uh say short range for whatever thing is 0 to 5 to 30 and then it's long range 31 and above obviously, does it suddenly stop at that 30 or do you.

Stephen: 27:37

Know a bit of a lot of games that do more kind of more free flow are they like you have a short range or you're kind of a little bit further at medium and long they're just three different ranges or whatever yeah, movement or something yeah i don't mind applying that to more complicated games saying are you really close which means you can get that but you'll get the bonus yeah so that's about a bit I.

Mark: 28:00

Don't like it when I'm DMing Theatre of the Mind and people keep on wanting to remind me of range. And I just think, narrate your range for me, please. I'm just not interested in these meta things that now no longer are to lie.

Stephen: 28:10

I'm far away to hit you but not get hit, okay?

Mark: 28:12

Yeah.

Stephen: 28:12

Oh, thank you.

Track 3: 28:13

It can change a lot of stuff.

Barry: 28:14

Don't get me wrong. If you are theatre of the minding, then yes, I would embrace that and I would, you know, narrate my range. And I would make my case and it would either be rejected or accepted by the DM. I don't, I don't, I'm not.

Mark: 28:26

But it is a defence mechanism, like you're saying.

Stephen: 28:28

They're trying.

Mark: 28:29

To use it in order to say to give them an advantage.

Stephen: 28:31

But sometimes it's a misunderstanding but you generally thought they were safe there generally and then they're not is a surprise sometimes you know.

Mark: 28:39

Okay so you have to forewarn them.

Barry: 28:41

And also also just while we're on the subject as well some battle boards are fucking beautiful no i know like you know i i'm not casting um um dispersions on um like my dm's artistic abilities but there are times when it's like You are a bit. But, you know, they've drawn a rough sketch with a marker, and that's fine, and it's functional, and it works. But there are other times where people are using, like, pre-printed tiles and stuff, and some of them are gorgeous.

Mark: 29:10

Man. I like it when the DM brings along his battle map in advance. He knows, and he lays it on the table, and you think, that's not wasted any time for us.

Barry: 29:18

I think it's probably come across in previous podcasts, and I think it's probably true of most of us. Like, we have a love for the accessories, and battle boardings are another accessory.

Mark: 29:25

And if you're that.

Barry: 29:26

Guy and it's like you want the nice things and you want it to look slick and polished and that's important for you then battleboarding is the way to go.

Mark: 29:34

So there is a cost to that and theater of the mind they can't take that away from you it's not going to cost you anything there's no there's no thought please here there's no there's no tax on on your on what you can imagine so i think that's in the varnish of theater of the mind steven do you think that uh the skill of the dm matters more with one method or the other do you think a dm needs to be a bit more experienced in?

Stephen: 29:57

Yeah, probably. The other mind, I suppose, you've got to be a bit more clued in about... yeah about your scenario i suppose and what what possibilities there would be or what the players could throw at you i think experience would help you don't have to be but i think it helps doesn't it because yeah because if you've done it before you've been there you've experienced that ever what people could potentially ask you in that situation you'd know how to handle it a lot easier if you've done it before yeah so.

Mark: 30:23

As a dm do you think prep time differs between the two or are they are they comparable.

Stephen: 30:28

No i suppose you me probably need more prep time for a battle board i suppose because you need to get the right figures the amount of figures you need and you need to draw the map whereas prep time for theater of mind is pretty zero isn't it um you pretty much respond into well you've got to read the scenario but it doesn't it's no extra and but there is no extra yeah i think when you find if you're going to allow the players to really theater of mind unless you've told them how to do and what to act and what to do exactly in that situation they're going to throw things that you may not expect.

Track 3: 30:56

So there's a pro and a con there um like i said before i haven't got a job that engages me mentally so i'm going over a.

Stephen: 31:04

Lot of guns but.

Track 3: 31:06

It largely depends on how well you know your characters uh so you your players their characters um roughly what they're gonna do.

Stephen: 31:17

Yeah and then you can sort of.

Track 3: 31:19

Go over stuff.

Stephen: 31:20

Yeah yeah maybe if you know your players that well that's a prep.

Track 3: 31:24

Time but yeah if it's a random group that you're turning up.

Stephen: 31:28

To for a club like that. I don't think you need to prep off for Theatre of Mind combat. I think you've got an idea of who's in it and what's happening, but then what happens within it is the idea of the Theatre of Mind that anything could happen in it.

Track 3: 31:36

Well, yeah.

Stephen: 31:37

I thought, you know, it's just...

Track 3: 31:37

It's not just the combat, it's the interactions.

Stephen: 31:40

Yeah.

Track 3: 31:41

So...

Stephen: 31:41

So it is more effort, I suppose, in that respect, but...

Mark: 31:44

So we would say that battle mapping, do you think it would make a combat more tactical or complicated in respect? People tend to, in my experience with theatre of the mind, they can be quite tactical as well, and equally so. So I don't know there's much difference considering the completely different approach to presenting that encounter. I don't think it affects tactics too much. What do you think, Barry? As a player, you've played board games as well and then transferred those skills across.

Barry: 32:15

I mean, I feel like for me personally, I'm more likely to have an understanding of what's going on and play tactically better with battle boards, but I'm not arrogant enough to say that that is the same for everyone. I just, whenever I play, like I've enjoyed the occasions that we played Fear of the Mind, but I do feel like for me, there's just it just it's just not neat and tidy and i think you know one of the worst things that you can have a uh you know a table is is um feeling like the dm has made an unjust decision and i think that's significantly less likely if you're battleboarding i'm not suggesting it i'm very fortunate all of our dms are great i'm not you know um but okay so maybe not a but it is.

Mark: 33:02

Very much less likely and if those things are likely to happen it perhaps if you don't trust your DM or your DM isn't quite, as hot on those things as you would like you know you're going to get a fair a better fair treatment on that no one it's not open to interpretation is it.

Barry: 33:18

Everyone's looking.

Mark: 33:19

At the board and everyone's seeing what's happening.

Barry: 33:20

Yeah and you know and everyone it's there's no it's a it suddenly it becomes more or less a complete information game every player can look at that board and have exactly the same information as each other um yeah battleboarding for me generally speaking wouldn't rule out fear of the mind and and you know like i say the times i've played it i've enjoyed it I you know but um I like the accessories as well that's a big part of it yeah and I like the change of pace I like the fact that it just changes like in a heartbeat as well like the the the your expectations and anticipation and all that while you're setting up a battle board is really good fun I.

Stephen: 33:58

Think it depends on what game you're playing as well and how.

Barry: 34:01

Many players.

Stephen: 34:01

You've got I mean if you're playing a more narrative game then it does suit for the other mind and also less players so you have to keep track of less you think players playing you've got to keep track of everyone's actions and they're fine yeah i thought so and depends on the game but you tend to play the more narrative games with less less players or i seem to seems to be the way um.

Barry: 34:21

One of the questions that often gets asked when you're in combat is well i'm attacking and i'm attacking one of the whatever the monster is and the dm will say which one and in theory in a mind i'm like i don't know that's a really good question all of a sudden that's a really good question that's not just a clarifying question. Whereas with a battle board, I'm like, that fucking one.

Mark: 34:39

Perhaps in theatre of the mind, it doesn't actually matter. And I suppose you're losing something there. Sometimes you don't want to complicate it by saying, there's a group of four here. Which one are you going for?

Stephen: 34:50

You have to, don't you?

Barry: 34:51

Yeah, but that's a really important part of combat, deciding which order you're going to pick enemies off in.

Stephen: 34:56

How do you hit the wounded one?

Barry: 34:58

Yeah, or the one that's not wounded. You know, for different reasons. Yeah.

Mark: 35:02

John, how do you handle that?

Track 3: 35:04

No, you're absolutely bang on. I've just sort of realised that if I'm reffing that, I've got it visualised. So I can see it, I know where they are, and it's down to me because I've chosen to do the wrong mind. It's down to me to narrate that. And the way that helps is one little detail on each of the opponents.

Barry: 35:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Track 3: 35:33

It could be, you know, the traditional scarred face or a torn armor. So a little thing that will help place it for them. But yeah, more often than not, it is the most injured or the least injured. um sometimes that will come down to perception or something like that but yeah you're bang on i suppose going.

Barry: 35:58

Back going back to survival tips as a player be the most medium injured.

Track 3: 36:02

Yeah yeah that's true yeah the dm won't pick around i'm taking the the step into reffing fifth edition soon and uh i think if my players were expecting either nice little hand-drawn maps or minis or anything, they're going to be woefully disappointed.

Mark: 36:20

Well, they're there if you need them.

Barry: 36:22

We're playing, aren't we, at the moment, we're playing Dolman Wood, and the resources for Dolman Wood are beautiful. And that, again, when I talk about the accessories, they don't have to be high cost. I understand what you're saying, that you can do this virtually cost-free, and that's amazing. But I like a pretty resource. I like the maps on Dolman Wood are magnificent. Like, they could be framed and put up as works of art in their own right.

Mark: 36:51

Yeah, they're fantastic.

Track 3: 36:53

We've had some really good ones with, not Decker, what was it called? Blade Runner.

Stephen: 36:59

Yeah, there's some nice accessories.

Track 3: 37:01

Some of that stuff was fantastic. The pictures drew you in and it was actually important. The details we were picking up.

Stephen: 37:06

Yeah, it was nicely done.

Track 3: 37:07

It's not just scenery.

Stephen: 37:09

No, no, it was good.

Track 3: 37:10

Yeah, so against everything that I've said, when they're really good... Fucking amazing.

Stephen: 37:16

Yeah, these reps help sometimes, don't they?

Track 3: 37:18

Yeah.

Stephen: 37:18

Some representations, yeah.

Mark: 37:20

And that's, I mean, we've spoken about it over the course of this podcast, but they're very, very clearly better. Some systems suit one way or the other, and you have to be mindful of that. You know, I think, like you say, smaller groups, more narrative games.

Stephen: 37:34

Sort of less rules that are in the game as well, makes it a bit easier.

Mark: 37:37

Why not keep the combat narratively as well? And yeah, so, you know, it is very dependent, I think, on the type of game you're playing, but also on the players you've got and what they might prefer. There's no right way, right? Okay, we're not going to say there's no wrong way, there's no right way. Would you agree with that? Even if the game seems to suit that particular style, you can still do it the other way.

Stephen: 38:00

Yeah, it depends on your players, like you said. If there is a wrong way, if your players don't like it, that's the wrong way, isn't it? I suppose you've got to figure out what's best for them.

Barry: 38:07

And like we said, it's worth pointing out, you don't have to do it the same way within the same campaign. You know, you can choose to reconcile some combats one way and some combats the other way. And that's a perfectly reasonable way to play. In fact, that's a perfectly sensible way to approach that.

Mark: 38:22

Yeah. So I'm going to finish the podcast off by asking you individually which one you prefer and the reasons why. So I'll start. And Barry, I'm going to start with you. But you've already really eloquently said you can go again with it because...

Barry: 38:36

I, generally speaking, I prefer battleboarding, but it would not in any way, shape or form prevent me from enjoying a theatre of the mind game. You know, there's so many facets to role-playing games that actually, as long as that's what I'm doing, the way that different DMs and different systems reconcile different elements doesn't sort of detract from it too much.

Mark: 39:03

One's not going to turn you off from playing it.

Barry: 39:05

I think battle boarding is prettier.

Mark: 39:08

John, which way do you prefer?

Track 3: 39:10

My preference is theory of the mind because it can add to the other stuff as well. So you've got your squares and maps and stuff, but if you can bring those extra elements from your imagination or other examples, you get, I don't know, tour books from caverns and show people if you want stuff like that and get something real. But if you can describe the feel of the rocks, the smells, and things like that, that will add more, I think, than a picture.

Mark: 39:44

Yeah, and it's more likely to happen spontaneously throughout an encounter, if you're narrating the entire thing, that you're already in that mode, that zone you're describing, rather than... Whose turn is it, right? You know, where you're moving. So, The Earth of Mind, for John, Stephen.

Stephen: 40:03

Yeah, it'd be a tough one, I must admit. I do enjoy both of mine, so it would have to come down to what game I'm playing. So, there's certain games I just wouldn't battle ball, like Cthulhu or even that Blade Runner. I just wouldn't do it, because I just don't think it would be very good. So, it depends what game I'm playing, and I'll be happy to do either. I would mix and match it in a D&D game, I could, if it was a small fight. So, yeah, I'm on the fence on it a bit.

Mark: 40:22

Yeah, I think I'm on the fence myself. but they are extremely different to each other. So be prepared as a new player. If one of them does concern you, find out what's being done before you join the table. If you have a preference, then maybe mention that too. Okay, so that's the end of this podcast. Stephen, over to you. And I'm pleased to say Stephen's done his homework. Well done, Stephen. And he has found his own quote.

Stephen: 40:46

Yes, this is my quote.

Track 3: 40:49

Entirely spontaneous. Which one was it? Un-scripted. that one yeah okay no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy, some some guy some guy it sounds it sounds like a german why did you choose a quote you couldn't even pronounce the name of the person well i thought i'd be really high brown unscripted, so let's slice and dice.