RPG Blokes

Pesky Cheats in your RPGs

• RPG Blokes • Season 2 • Episode 21

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This week we’re diving into the finer points of gaming and tackling those pesky cheats! We’ve witnessed it all over the years so you won’t fool us. If you’re keen to stay informed and spot rule-breakers like we do, join us. You might even learn something about your fellow gamers – if you can ever believe another word of what they say that is!

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Mark:

Welcome to RPG Blokes, the podcast for people getting into role-playing games a little later in life, or coming back to the table after a long break. In this episode, we're going to talk through some of the common types of cheating we've seen in the game over the years, and how we as players and GMs handle it, when it happens. This isn't about blaming anybody, it's about awareness, consistency, and making sure everyone at the table has a good experience. And so if we call you out, apologies for that in advance i think we'll be calling each other out so let's be fair about it so i begin by introducing the rpg blokes uh steven in a podcast about cheats my money is on steven saying very little listen out for how many times he says i never knew that yeah guilty silence advance warning don't believe a word of it uh barry will never cheat as long as by not cheating things work out to his advantage he enforces the letter of the law which is just another clever way of cheating if you ask me i'm scrupulously honest okay and uh john has never acted dishonestly at the gaming table in his life that is unless you include the amount of illegal pdf game books he has on his laptop it's truly shocking harsh but fair if anyone is thinking enough sponsoring john don't he's got everything he needs hey.

Jon:

My shit's out of print i can't afford to get there for find those books.

Mark:

I suppose we should start with steven and talk about dice cheating there were many ways of doing it steven why me.

Stephen:

Why me purely.

Barry:

Random selection steve.

Stephen:

You think cheating is having a dice that rolls slightly better than others i don't class that as cheating at all i just think that's just a decent dice to be fair can.

Barry:

I just ask a quick question if you were doing that in a casino do you think you'd walk out with your legs intact.

Stephen:

Well casino dice are given to you so it's you know it's kind of you don't bring your own dice so the.

Barry:

Solution for steven is when he arrives.

Stephen:

If you.

Mark:

Want a set of dice if you want to but to be fair to.

Stephen:

Everybody you have to give everyone the same set of dice i'm fine with that otherwise it's cheating i'm fine with that but that's not cheating anyway that's just that's just a dice that might roll better i've to be honest i can admit this it was a long time ago i played um a dragon warriors game which i'm sure everyone knows what people know that you have to roll low, on the on the dice and use a d20 but i use the d10, That was 1 to 10 twice on it. And the DM didn't realise for a little while. I did stop. I did it for a test.

Mark:

So it was impossible to roll above 10?

Stephen:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was 1 to 10 twice on a D20. And it's great for saying it like Dragon Balls. That's cheating. The other thing is not. That's cheating, yeah? That's just an example of cheating.

Mark:

So that's a cheating dice, and you can get just dice that allow you to cheat.

Stephen:

It's rubbish in D&D, though.

Barry:

Obviously, I've become fond of Stephen. But I'm just going to say that, actually, I think if you are rolling a dice that you know is weighted towards higher numbers, rolls more because of a manual. I do think that's a form of cheating. I think if you were doing it without that knowledge, then yeah, that's not cheating.

Stephen:

Well, it's only sort of circumstantial knowledge. It's kind of like, yeah, okay, I rolled it a few times. I've done really well. It's never been tested to 1,000 to 2,000 times.

Mark:

It is a form of cheating, I agree. I mean, but when we're talking about dice cheating, it's only one of the ways that people cheat with their dice.

Stephen:

I don't claim it's cheating.

Barry:

Like can we talk about the fast pickup.

Mark:

You get a fast pickup i'm like that's the fastest i've seen you move bruh and he's going oh yeah that was a 19.

Barry:

You're like was it bollocks no immediately it was not a 19.

Mark:

Nobody pick up picks up their dice if they've rolled a 20 or 19 do they let it show exactly you show it off exactly and then you're rolling a 20 and you know it's it's already in your hand, that's a cheat, right? A hundred percent?

Barry:

A hundred percent.

Stephen:

Yeah.

Barry:

A hundred percent. If you are claiming a number that you didn't roll to gain an advantage, you don't understand the fucking point of the game. Like, again, and I've said this in the past, I'm pretty sure I've said this in the past, like, it's about telling a story. Like, failure is an incredibly important part of any story.

Mark:

It makes it boring if you're never going to fail.

Barry:

Absolutely. And we covered this in Dice Superstitions. I don't have any dice superstitions. I roll all of my dice in the open. Everyone can see what I've rolled. But some of the best sessions I've ever had have come out of a session of rolling really crap. So it's like, you know, you got captured and imprisoned, and all of a sudden you're trying to find a way to escape from jail. That is a much more fun story.

Mark:

But people tend to, well, that's more of a narrative thing. So you're making a non-combat dice roll potentially in those circumstances. But if you're in a fight and the narrative is you die or you don't die, perhaps that's more of an incentive to cheat.

Stephen:

Like making a saving throw. That's the ones that people might cheat on. It's like a life or death roll in that moment. You need to save or you die. I've seen that a few times. People rarely fail that.

Barry:

I was going to say, in D&D, even when you lose, you're probably going to survive. I mean, character deaths are, they happen, don't get me wrong, they've happened to me. I think they've probably, obviously they will have happened to you guys. Um, And again, character definitely ain't that big a deal. You get to roll up another guy and play a different class.

Mark:

That's how we feel about it, but that's not how everybody else does. John, you've played with the DM to the kids a lot. Do you see a lot of cheating going on? Because you'd think with children it might be one of the young adults, but you'd think they'd be more inclined to do it.

Jon:

I don't know. No, they react quite openly to the dice rolls. So you can see the disappointment or whatever painted on their face. Oh, no.

Mark:

As you can tell immediately they're reacting and their emotions are tied into the role.

Jon:

So at the moment it's Warhammer. So they've got fortune points which for those that don't know are re-rolls and the glorious thing is when one who's got like four of these fortune points and it's a really important role and they burn through them right at the beginning of the session and then they've got to play the rest of the session without that little fallback thing and it, yeah but it definitely registers well.

Stephen:

I think that sort of mechanic definitely takes away from the need to cheat as such because if you've got four re-rolls you're more likely just to pick up and roll again and then.

Jon:

Probably be successful last night it did but i saw your face i was thinking john's gonna john's.

Stephen:

Gonna cheat on this one.

Jon:

Nope i just socked dice cheating you see i don't like the.

Mark:

People that roll dice that you cannot even they cannot tell what the dice are showing because the.

Jon:

Colors on the.

Mark:

Dice are so hard to I mean, I need glasses now to see any dice rolls.

Jon:

That's why I brought these ones.

Mark:

Bigger dice, yeah.

Jon:

You can see that shit.

Mark:

Yeah, it's like the telephones they get for the old people with the buttons.

Jon:

Hey, also yes.

Mark:

Yeah, that pretty much is what it is. Yeah, but you see people with dice that you know that they've chosen. I think they've chosen those dice because they're difficult to read and so they're easier to kind of manipulate the rolls on.

Barry:

So I'm going to come in in defense of dodgy dice there. Now I've got a couple of dive sets that I find difficult to read, but when I saw them online, they looked really pretty. I didn't buy them. It was only when I started rolling them, I was like, I can't tell whether that's a two or a three. Do you know what I mean? Or a seven or a 17. I've no clue.

Stephen:

But it was obviously I started rolling them.

Barry:

And they've just been retired. They're still very pretty, and I've still got them in my box. But, eh. I don't think people, I mean, you know, I don't think people are picking dice that are specifically difficult to read. I think if you're going to cheat, you'll cheat with any set of dice.

Mark:

The best way to cheat with dice would be, well, the fast pickup, you think? That's what people do the most. They just roll it, call it.

Stephen:

I think that's a natural response to cheating, isn't it? It's just a guilty response to pick it up. Then they think about it a little bit and then they go, yeah, no, I made it.

Mark:

I've played with players that just, they've got no, they don't even mix it up with a few bad rolls. It's just like constant. Twenties when they need them and at the table and everybody. Nobody says anything, do they? Because it's almost like a faux pas to bring it up because you don't want to accuse somebody of cheating at the title.

Barry:

I don't... Your memory's... serving you well there we you and i have been at a table where someone got called out.

Mark:

They did get called.

Barry:

Out they did get called out and it was all very polite and civil but someone said i literally just saw you roll a seven that those were i literally just saw you roll it don't.

Mark:

Happen very often though you know we don't call people out for cheating very often and we know it's happening.

Barry:

We leave.

Mark:

The session we go they they fucking cheated on that.

Barry:

And and like this is the thing if you're listening to this and you are just starting out like don't fucking cheat like you will have more fun not cheating than you do i understand that there is an element of like particularly for adventurers there is an element of glory hunting like characters motivations across all of these systems is at least in part you know i want to play out these heroic things that i can't do in real life and i want the vicarious glory i get that but you will have more fun if you're honest with your dice rolls you will experience you know a a greater depth of despair and joy the roller coaster ride that dice offers is worth getting on.

Jon:

That's the whole point in the game.

Barry:

It's the whole point of dice in the game is you know absolutely so.

Mark:

None of us cheat uh apart from steven.

Barry:

Now hold on can we just can we just can we just can we just clarify something here so So, Stephen, let's say, for example, that you noticed that a character was secretly healing themselves without telling anyone, including the DM. Would you consider that to be a form of cheating? I do.

Stephen:

I consider that to be a worse form of cheating.

Jon:

I don't think we're going to get anywhere there.

Mark:

That is not cheating.

Stephen:

It's at best underhanded, but it is cheating, yeah.

Jon:

Certainly bad role-playing if it's a paladin.

Barry:

I think in that circumstance, you have to at least tell the DM so that he can decide whether your fellow characters notice that you're doing that and get the ump about it.

Mark:

But I'm not cheating because I've got the resource to do that. I'm providing my own healing to myself and I'm just topping up. So I've got to lose three points in a combat. Who's going to know?

Stephen:

Did you ask the DM if that was okay to do?

Mark:

No, I did not discuss that.

Barry:

And did you give the other players a chance to notice that you were doing that? to yourself, especially as you were probably asking them for healing potions.

Mark:

Well, they could always say I was on bullet points. I mean, I don't know. They must.

Stephen:

Did they just think you were cheating?

Mark:

Their lack of attention does not mean I'm cheating, just because they're not paying attention.

Stephen:

They just didn't want to call you out on it. That's why, as we discussed, they felt awkward about it. He's always on bullet points. How's this happening?

Jon:

No one else can see your body language, the ferret board.

Mark:

So we move on to the next form of cheating, I think, because.

Barry:

Oh, we're moving on to the one that.

Mark:

No, but it's not what I was doing.

Barry:

Like health track cheating oh.

Mark:

People do cheat on their health track right on their hit points they don't record the hit.

Barry:

Points they've.

Mark:

Lost correctly without a doubt.

Barry:

That's i mean that's that's that and that's true of every resource yes potentially now i've infinite arrow loop i will hold my hand up and like you guys have all met me and and and like admin is not a strong point for me so i have there have been occasions where i've like you know how much i love the luck feet and i'm like oh i've got my last because you get what is it three per long list your admin's pretty bad but.

Mark:

You can count three.

Barry:

Yeah yeah you know but i'd forgotten to cross one of them off and i was down to one and i used it and then it was about 10 minutes later when i was like, i think i might be on negative one yeah okay i'm not gonna say anything it's that was done it's done there wasn't there was no intention okay all comes out now i just my.

Mark:

Face is just.

Barry:

Incredulity i don't.

Mark:

Know how you can literally put call me out for not cheating just using my resources discreetly but that's plain plain out cheating.

Barry:

Well like i said a time had passed by the time that i'd realized i'd made that mistake and it was a genuine you've seen my fucking character sheet like hold on get our wolf up if you can we've got our warhammer fantasy world plan sheets. If you can read 40% of what's on there in my handwriting.

Jon:

It's really bad. He's looking at mine.

Barry:

Hand on heart, there are times where I can't read my own handwriting.

Stephen:

Which is a form of chin.

Barry:

Using hieroglyphs.

Mark:

Is your name Piles?

Barry:

No.

Mark:

Okay, so it's not good.

Barry:

So no, you can't read it at all. So you can't even read my freaking name That's how bad I am at that stuff. And again, this is a distinction worth making. Sometimes you make an honest mistake and you get an advantage from it. And sometimes you make a dishonest decision and get an advantage from it. Those are two separate and distinct things.

Stephen:

So we're saying that here that nobody's done that with their hit points then in the game.

Mark:

I i try not to but when push comes to shove.

Stephen:

I mean you've got and also there's a questionnaire about i suppose you say this as a player's perspective yeah is it i know i probably know the answer to this but if a dm does it is that cheating like you've got the monster stats you've got the monster's hit points and then they decided to double it at the last minute i think there's a difference between.

Mark:

Cheating as a dm and cheating.

Stephen:

Is it possible to cheat it's called fudging yeah okay there's a word for it exactly I agree, but some people might just think DMs can cheat too.

Barry:

Or can they?

Mark:

If they're cheating, I'm going to cheat.

Stephen:

Exactly. He's doubling in the hit points.

Barry:

I mean, in Mark's defense here, Mark has probably DMed me more than anyone, I think. And Mark does all of his roles out in the open. So you might be out of fudge resources and hit points and stuff like that, but you don't fudge any of your roles as a DM.

Stephen:

I think DMs are the worst cheats in the world, generally.

Mark:

Because I like to roll in the open to make sure that you feel that there's that fairness there. Yeah.

Barry:

I mean, and I kind of worry as well that sometimes, I think we all know DMs fudge from time to time and they're doing it because they want to move the story forward. I actually think most of the DMs that I've experienced will probably fudge the other way. Like they would be hesitant to kill one of their characters.

Mark:

We know DMs that have been the opposite. But yeah, most DMs I think are right.

Barry:

Yeah, because DMs want everyone to have a good time, right? They want it to carry on.

Stephen:

You'd have to cheat to maintain that.

Barry:

Yeah, like I said, I don't like DM screens. I think all of the roles should be in the open. And I actually think if that means a PC is dead, that means a PC is dead. Get your dice out.

Stephen:

I think if we're going for rules as written type thing, everyone's going for the dice. The DM should follow that rule too.

Mark:

I think so. Yeah, I don't like when DMs roll behind the screen.

Stephen:

No. I think I just don't like it too much.

Jon:

Technically, when I'm running Shadow online, they can't see my dice. It doesn't help I consistently roll up really, really shit.

Mark:

I suppose online it's acceptable.

Jon:

Yeah, but last Monday I rolled a lot of 5s and 6s, which is massive. It's on a D6, the system, and I felt really bad, but stuff happened.

Mark:

Did they call you out?

Jon:

No.

Mark:

Did they say, no way did you do that? You must be fucking cheating.

Jon:

I think they're just used to me going, oh, fuck. When there's absolutely nothing.

Mark:

Yeah.

Jon:

But as regards DM fudging, narratively, so the biggest thing with, say, end of boss level fight is –, Often got one big boss and the party.

Mark:

Yeah.

Jon:

So action economy, that boss is going to get absolutely rinsed. Or you roll poor initiative. And the big cool thing that it gets to do, whether it doesn't get to happen.

Mark:

Okay. So you would fudge under those circumstances.

Jon:

Actually, no. But it is really disappointing.

Stephen:

Double hip ones and stuff.

Mark:

So I have done.

Jon:

That but I've done that because not all the party got to act and they've all got like a class feature or a bit of cool shit that they want to do, so the boss is still going last but having the first couple of fighters get it and everyone else just sit around that's.

Mark:

Anticlimactic I want everyone to pile.

Jon:

In and do their thing then it dies.

Mark:

Especially if it's the end of a campaign or a boss encounter it's anticlimactic I agree I normally replay it out and let it become anticlimactic because i find that if i'm fudging i find that i find that i'm competing with the players and i i start to get a little bit anxious about the way that the game's going and how far can i go what am i doing here and i i think the players quite appreciate an easy win sometimes even if it's the boss i mean it it sometimes it can be good for them to know yeah they've got everything right it just went their way and it happens and i think it It gives more credibility to you as a DM to do that and present it in that way.

Jon:

So one example I'm thinking of is you was reffing Warhammer to, well, he was part of that. There was a swamp troll or something kind of charging out. And that was supposed to be like the session fight, wasn't it?

Mark:

Yeah.

Jon:

We all turned around. We got initiative. We shot the absolute fuck out of it. It dropped before it even got to us. Yeah. And yes, it was brilliant that that happened, but there was definitely a sense of, hang on, there should have been something else.

Mark:

Should have been. It's a great creature. It had loads of extra abilities to use against you. I was looking forward to it being a real challenge.

Jon:

That's when you have two of them.

Mark:

Yes.

Stephen:

Yeah.

Mark:

A bit of thought planning.

Stephen:

I think, when it comes to that sort of boss fight. So I think if you plan it as a DM, then it kind of works out to your plan. But I think if you stick to the plan, don't change it during the actual session. so it just feels like yeah it feels like the goalposts are being moved sometimes when you're playing a game and.

Jon:

Suddenly whoa hang on experienced players can spot it as well yeah then we're.

Stephen:

Aiming for something else.

Jon:

Yeah there is why you do it though like I say if you're letting everyone else have a go that's I think that's a bit patronising.

Stephen:

But yeah it's alright.

Jon:

If they're all keyed up and having a chance to do the thing everyone wants to do the thing yeah the other part of it from a DM's point of view is I feel as if I'm doing that.

Mark:

It feels transparent to me because I know I'd spot somebody else doing that to me. And we often DM to each other, all very experienced DMs and players. I just got more respect for you guys than to do it, because I think, yeah, doubling the troll number and suddenly another troll climbs out of the water, out of the river. If you've got a young group of players or a novice group, you do that, you get away with it. But I think you don't get away with it when you're DMing to it.

Stephen:

All our stuff on the first troll and then another one comes out the water. Fuck it, hell.

Jon:

Then you get the grim peril. You do, but you think.

Stephen:

You know, you cheated.

Jon:

But fine.

Mark:

And then someone dies.

Stephen:

Somebody's a fake point. The DM feels good about it, but the player's going, you don't do that.

Jon:

Okay, so the example, Grendel and Beowulf. And after he took hold of that, the mum. that's a prime example of the right again angle that was too.

Mark:

Easy, deleted everything and gone back to the beginning again uh yeah so from a dm's point of view cheating comes in in other forms you can fudge your dice rolls as well but narratively speaking if you you know you can play around with hit points that monsters have and things like that we tend to avoid it but yeah i don't think if you start thinking like that barry i mean you've always thought that dms have been fairly transparent and on on the level with you you've never had that feeling that a dm is um increasing the challenge as you successfully deal with things in a live environment are you finding that at all i mean i don't.

Barry:

I don't i don't think so um yeah i think my dms have always been like pretty straight with me and there have been occasions where you know i'm pretty sure that as a group of players we did better than expected and moved through something a bit quicker which has meant that the dm has had to kind of move on to material that they're not necessarily prepared for um i don't think i don't i don't think i'd appreciate like like you just said oh that was really easy here's another troll coming out like that yeah that would jar me because it was like.

Mark:

Oh you know yeah this.

Barry:

This was this was the encounter we've done it.

Mark:

Let's move on yeah that's right that's the way we like to dm so you'd expect that from your dm i suppose if you sense your dms doing doing that it makes it more likely you it's a cheat you might employ some of these other tactics to your own advantage becomes.

Stephen:

A bit adversarial doesn't it between.

Mark:

The player.

Stephen:

And dm then it all kicks off yeah.

Mark:

Yeah we're talking about pvp in future podcasts and player versus player but this is dm versus player yeah that is another dynamic that you should really try and try and avoid again.

Jon:

It's the reason behind it if it's for for the narrative or something that's a different thing but yeah not no but it's funny i'm taking my ball and i'm going home i'm giving you triple hit points but it's funny isn't it because we talk about and you know i said i don't particularly like the phrase but you know the collaborative storytelling.

Barry:

Element of this game does kind of go out the window when you start rolling combat dice, Do you know, every DM that I've seen that has been playing the NPCs or the monsters or whatever in combat has tried to play them optimally. Do you know what I mean? They are rooting for the NPCs that they're playing. They are trying to beat.

Mark:

Yeah, it does become adversarial.

Barry:

They're trying to win the combat, but I want that from them. I want them to be trying to. I don't want to breeze through the combat. I want there to be jeopardy. I want there to be, you know, oh, my God, this could be it. oh my god I could go down one more hit and I'm going to be fair though yes yes so this.

Mark:

Is covering I think resource management cheating that can happen as a dm as well as a player now this next one I've got here um it can it's only the players that can cheat in this in this manner reading up on the adventure.

Barry:

Oh very sad what's wrong with people yeah what the fuck is wrong with people, yeah it happens a lot I just don't get it I just don't get it makes me very sad yeah I just thought i want that stuff to be revealed to me during the gameplay yeah do you know what i mean and like okay so i could kind of understand it if it was like so when i started playing dnd i sort of imagined it was going to be full of like tedious puzzles and stuff like that it kind of isn't like i could sort of get it if if every week you were having to answer a riddle because the reality is is if the players you don't know it you don't fucking know it.

Mark:

Just want to get over.

Barry:

And you You know what I mean? So I'm not saying that I would do that, but I'd sort of understand it. But that isn't the case. What you're doing is spoiling the story. These are the same people who, if you mention the episode after... and whatever series they're watching that they're on, they'll dig you out for giving them spoilers.

Stephen:

Let's hope people will read the last page of a book as well, I think.

Mark:

What is the psychology of a player that requires them to come to a session and know how to navigate pretty much everything?

Stephen:

Yeah, worse things in a dungeon or something, Dungeons and Dragons, and they know exactly where all the items are hidden. It's a problem. It is a massive problem, and unfortunately it gets worse If you don't call it out, people feel empowered about it, and it does escalate, and they're a bit more brazen about it.

Mark:

Yeah, because it's so easy to do now.

Stephen:

It's probably best to take them aside and call them out, if I'm honest, and thinking back. But it's kind of, yeah, I won't name any names, but players a long time ago, ages ago, that went to certain walls and dungeons and searched for secret doors and looked underneath things for secret passages and then found the item that's hidden there. Weird. How did that happen?

Mark:

Because the PDFs, you can just search them online and read them within a second of doing so. And I suppose there is, if you're bored and you're thinking about the game, it sometimes might be tempting to say, you know, that just happened. I want to check whether it should have done or what the DMs slant on it. I suppose there are reasons. But wait until you finish the adventure if you want to do that.

Stephen:

Yeah.

Mark:

And then riff it. And then I'll give people a warning on it. I think as an experienced DM, it stands out like a country mile when people are doing it.

Stephen:

It does, yeah.

Mark:

And you know you can spot them very easy. and it does spoil the enjoyment of me as a DM when I see people do that. Because what they're doing is they're, like Barry, you're saying the dice take you in random directions, so why would you cheat on the dice? I think when you've got a player that is determined to do everything the right way and knows the path through the adventure, that stops a random element of the game that I enjoy as a DM as well.

Jon:

Yeah.

Barry:

And it's one of the things that comes up in game quite a lot if you're playing it honestly. You like reach... um a destination and then something that you sort of circumvented three sessions ago turns out was really fucking important but you know that's that's that's the reality element to it like i didn't connect that thing that happened three weeks ago to this thing that we're doing now and as a result of that we are now at a disadvantage and disadvantages are interesting you know being up against it it's the it's the um you know it's the it's it's the challenges that you face along the way that make the story interesting why would you is.

Stephen:

It fair to say then people who do cheat and put dice and this don't want to be at a disadvantage i think they're the sort of people that would do it at all.

Barry:

Yeah i don't want to.

Stephen:

Be a disadvantage because if you read the scenario you have an.

Barry:

Advantage that you know what you're.

Stephen:

Doing and you sound very intelligent as you solve everything and the fact that if you're picking up your dice and not not losing you're just not losing are you so you just obviously don't want to be at disadvantage you just don't feel.

Barry:

Comfortable i kind of i do it's not that i don't want to put themselves in that position it's not that i don't understand it at all i do everyone everyone wants to be impressive you know everyone wants to be thought of as i don't know clever or dynamic or or do you know i mean and and like i get that you know taking these cheats might make you appear to be that but if it was me it'd be like yeah but i know i'm a twat like do you know what i mean i know i haven't earned any of this um like if you are getting any respect from your fellow players for like so i haven't really earned that no like, yeah i just don't i just it's.

Mark:

The hardest one for me to understand and it's one of the few traits within a player that if i knew it was happening i would not want them at my table i can deal with dice cheats. I can deal with many of the other things. But that one...

Barry:

The reading ahead.

Mark:

Yeah, the reading ahead and reading up. That's the one that's a breaker for me. John, have you experienced much of that?

Jon:

It used to be the same thing with monster stats people had swat up on. the monster manual stuff like that and woe betide the ref that slightly varied the on the class of the ogre or some i suppose we can move on to a bit of that meta gaming yeah isn't it um do you consider that to be a form of cheating yeah absolutely because you've got the knowledge you can't undo that.

Mark:

Knowledge in your head.

Jon:

Yeah but it like barry said it's more fun to play against that. There's certain things that people know, certain common creature weaknesses. If I say trolls, everyone will know the one I mean.

Mark:

And you can account for those.

Jon:

Yeah. So common knowledge, if the character's got creature law, make them roll on it. If not, they've got to spend at least a round or two. Not, oh, I've heard this name, like we're expecting to meet that in a week. Let's stock up on this and this. just for that so.

Mark:

You think it'd be more fun to to role play even though you know it as a player to role play a character that.

Jon:

Doesn't have that knowledge so.

Mark:

There's an enjoyment in and having that dynamic between.

Jon:

You and the game part of that is uh the responsibility of the ref if someone's playing to that and you go with it you don't punish them for not stocking up on the thing that you know the player yeah okay so you could always reward.

Mark:

Reward that kind.

Jon:

Of play make sure there's You know, that resource is nearby narratively or something like that. You know, campfire, whatever.

Stephen:

I'm just saying it goes back to putting yourself at a disadvantage willingly then, aren't you? See, if you know that you can't hurt this iron golem with a non-magic weapon, yet you throw yourself at it with a non-magic weapon for 15 rounds. Well, not 15.

Jon:

Once you hit it a couple of times, you'll fit in it.

Mark:

How many players do that?

Jon:

Not many.

Stephen:

Everyone does it for one round and goes, oh, okay, that's it. I realise I didn't hurt it at all. That's it. I'm going to talk to my plus five mace.

Mark:

You always say to the DM, what does my character know? Yeah, exactly.

Stephen:

Yeah.

Mark:

I think those people...

Barry:

No, but see, that's something that I... don't have a problem with because if you're like me and you're not like well versed in the law obviously it's improving through osmosis i think you know asking the dm would my character know anything about this is a perfectly reasonable question because as a player i don't know whether my character i don't know whether this is a really common thing for people in in ravenloft or wherever to know or whether this is something that that like it's unlikely i don't have a problem with asking that i do have a problem with players using the knowledge that they have that their character blatantly doesn't and it's always been for me like one of the things that i've um noticed about or that i've thought about with with dms like it must be really hard because you have kind of an intimate knowledge of the monster stats and stuff like that so when you're playing as a player it must be quite hard not to go oh you know i reckon that's probably got about 60 hit points yeah.

Mark:

You do use it to your advantage but you try and do so discreetly so you know if you know that that's a pretty tough encounter i can always maneuver myself to to do that it's hard not to do that and use that i suppose that's a little bit of cheating involved completely um yeah that.

Jon:

Goes back to the narrative thing of adjusting a scene to fit like the appropriate threat level.

Mark:

Yeah and.

Jon:

Stuff like that so.

Mark:

Yeah but barry you would find if somebody else was to use meta knowledge quite quickly in an encounter that you have no familiarity with that would affect your enjoyment of the encounter at least if not the.

Barry:

Well yeah it's um it's going the nature of that encounter has changed and it shouldn't have yeah do you know what i mean it's like it it it if i as a player know that a monster is i don't know vulnerable to force damage do you know what i mean My character doesn't know that.

Mark:

Yeah.

Barry:

And, you know, okay. I don't think it's unreasonable that if as a player, you know, okay, this creature is vulnerable to force damage. So I'm going to go through a process of making my character discover that. Like that's okay. If you, if you, if you kind of manipulate your character towards finding that out, I think that's a fair enough way of reconciling that, but just coming in and going Eldritch Blast, because I know it's got force damage is bullshit.

Mark:

It is. Yeah.

Stephen:

Yeah. That would be cheating. I would say most people don't do that to be fair. In my experience, they do, even if they do know they do, they sort of like spend at least a round going, Oh no.

Mark:

Okay.

Stephen:

And I'll try this.

Jon:

And I've had, players be super honest about that at the table as me they'll turn to you and go oh well i know xyz but this guy doesn't no so then it's a couple of rounds later you're like now we're on it that's what you want to hear as a dm john how would how would you deal with a player that.

Mark:

Just literally just immediately assumes that his character knows everything he does and he's he's well read.

Jon:

Change it yeah this is where um pyro trolls and stuff like that came about purely for people like that Yeah.

Mark:

Okay, for grognards that sort of want to cheat on the rules.

Jon:

It's a thing. But you've got a program.

Stephen:

Is cheating against a cheater? Is that acceptable?

Jon:

Justice. Okay.

Barry:

Counter-cheating.

Stephen:

It's fine. Someone's got a word for it. It's going to look for my lawyer, that's all I'm saying.

Jon:

So some things are, if someone's locked into it, like knowing what a creature is or what most games now fifth edition um shadow run they have like threat levels or uh particular types so you can get say an orc but it might be a sneak it might be a brute it might be something else so.

Mark:

You would have those variations in immediately knowing that you have a player at the table that's going to be a know-it-all and.

Jon:

Yeah yeah.

Mark:

Just do that.

Jon:

I mean at a...

Mark:

Small work though, isn't it?

Jon:

Yeah. Um... But that can stop once you just look them in the eye and tell them, yeah, that's not working. So, yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. Okay. So, moving on. And this is another one I find that players do. And it's really, it's confrontational in a way. To take back an action or pretending they didn't say something in exactly the way that they said it. And you kind of forward the narrative and then suddenly they object to the outcome. And you say, well, it's really difficult. but it is like it's like when the dm.

Barry:

Says something like so where are you all standing you're like oh fuck yeah.

Mark:

Yeah that's what we got figures.

Stephen:

Out the other day we spoke about that about having a figure based scenario so they can't argue about where they're standing but yeah.

Mark:

So where are you all standing when a dm says that it's normally because he's lost track of where people standing right but that gives you an opportunity to change where you were standing but the dm has a kind of idea i think i was still at the end but the thing is as.

Barry:

A player you don't know whether it's because he's lost track of it or whether it's because he's got something like sublimely evil planned.

Mark:

Yeah and he just wants to double check just try i'm.

Barry:

Just trying to work out which one of you is on the trap door.

Mark:

Yeah the worst one is what's like who went into the room everyone everyone did and it's just one person and then it ends up being in that room.

Jon:

Hang on you're halfway through.

Mark:

Looting that chair and you're.

Barry:

Like but hold.

Mark:

On you were talking to me yeah were you.

Jon:

Shouting there we go encounter all bitches.

Mark:

It is yeah it's like that film Stripes and Bill Murray and the lion and he steps forward and pretends to step forward and everyone else does and he just stands back I think there's a lot of that goes on in the game and you often talk about talking in third person perspective and first and you think that talking in third person allows you to take advantage at this level of...

Stephen:

It does, because you're kind of asking the DM, if I did this, would this happen technically is what you're doing. And so you're getting a response before then making a decision. You go, well, I wouldn't do that then.

Mark:

But a DM might get confused by that.

Stephen:

Yeah, they do. They expose more, I think. If you just go first person and say, I am doing this, it's very finite and finished. But he says, well, if I do this, if I do this...

Mark:

So, for instance, that's play out a little thing. Like you're going up to a chest and this chest is a threat to you. How would you then approach it in a third person...

Stephen:

Oh, yes.

Jon:

Tell the barbarian the chest looks interesting.

Stephen:

Yeah. So, you know, so if I went up to it, you know, what would it look like?

Jon:

And it's a chest.

Mark:

It's, um, you can see it's got a lock, um, but it doesn't look locked. You could just open it.

Stephen:

Does it look like I could smash it open?

Mark:

Yeah.

Stephen:

So if, if I did smash it open, would people get injured? Um, yeah. are people near enough to so.

Mark:

Are you smashing it open.

Stephen:

I didn't say that, so for me i'll get information from you there the response there is guess.

Jon:

How you find out.

Stephen:

Yeah no yeah you have to realize it's happening so.

Mark:

I'm i'm working away in my head to make sure that you open this chest right so you're.

Stephen:

Well i'm just asking if anyone else is a collateral damage but i actually did smash it people will wear people standing anyway no i've already yeah Then I go.

Mark:

So where is everyone standing? And then you're outside the room and nowhere near the chest. Because you were talking about the chest.

Stephen:

I was nowhere near it. Then you would say, yeah, the traps get sprung. I was, well, I wasn't near it. I was talking if I went up to it. If I smashed it. And then you go, and then you slap your head like that.

Mark:

So we found another form of cheating that Stephen employs.

Stephen:

It's effective though, isn't it?

Jon:

Practical misdirection.

Stephen:

I wasn't there.

Barry:

I've worked out where you're going wrong. In order to discourage this, you need to slap their head, not your head.

Stephen:

Yeah, that's true. Eventually you do. I don't often do that. Do I? Maybe I do. It's a bit subconscious, but it is a way of not being there yet, finding out information.

Mark:

Okay. So what, force people into first-person perspective.

Stephen:

I suppose? Yeah, just media actions is the best thing to do, to say, yeah, oh, you're opening the chest.

Mark:

Taking back actions, again, you know, John, have you encountered that a lot with the younger players? Is that something that they get a little bit?

Jon:

No, they do get cautious. and yeah there is the thing of what will happen if I do that or if I do that will that happen and it's guess how you find out you'll.

Stephen:

Be clued in.

Jon:

If it's a knowledge thing like Barry brought up earlier then yeah if the character's got a knowledge skill they get to roll on it that's a different thing but for physical actions yeah but this is.

Barry:

The thing isn't it I'm trying to remember what campaign it was it was definitely, anyway Anyway, it was when I was playing Tam. Tam was a brilliant character. Loved Tam to bits. Squashbuckler rogue, legend through and through. But I remember Ollie, our DM at the time, specifically saying to me.

Jon:

I was discussing options.

Barry:

Kind of like, I'm owning it. But he looked me dead in the eye and he went, yeah, if you do that, that's probably the end of time. I want you to know that. And I was like, okay, fair enough. Because it was a stupid thing, but I am known for doing the stupid thing.

Stephen:

But if you just went straight and did it.

Barry:

Then I would have been dead. So it is a fine line. And again, this has come up so often throughout this podcast. It is about having the quality of DM who can spot that stuff, reconcile it, and decide, because I wasn't trying to cheat.

Stephen:

Yeah, I don't think most people do it.

Barry:

It's just a testament of what you're doing. And he gave me, I mean, that's a big heads up, let's be honest. That is a big heads up.

Mark:

But you must have felt that you deserved that in the manner in which you were playing in general, generally speaking, the character.

Barry:

You've played with me. I couldn't play it anymore. I could not play it anymore honestly than I do. It's not possible. Yeah.

Mark:

Yeah. The heart's on your sleeve.

Barry:

And I think, again, and I'll say this to people, I quite like having a connection with my characters. I've had some characters that have been like, oh my God, he was so much fun and he was a badass. But don't get so connected to them that you're going to cheat to stop them from dying. If that's their story, that's their story. Roll up another one, you get to roll another legend.

Mark:

Yeah, that's what cheats me out on, I think. That feeling that something's not under their control. They're passing over control to the scenario or to the DM. They don't like, they perhaps relinquish in that control.

Barry:

And you see it quite often as well, don't you? People making choices that aren't necessarily the end of their character in terms of the end of their character's life, but the end of their, the relevance of their character, that campaign, like they go off and join, or they find somewhere and they think, you know, my guy would settle here. My guy has come far enough. And I like that when people make that decision as well. When people make the decision that, and again, I think it's about not being a glory hunter, not being, not, not only being in it for that. That guy's story ended there.

Mark:

Mm.

Barry:

Roll up a new character.

Mark:

Yeah, I love it. Especially having a player that can accept that. That is role-playing maturity.

Stephen:

Though, isn't it? We've been playing for such a long time. Some of the memories I have of this team, I was young at the time, and people, when they first start, are more inclined, I think, to do that.

Barry:

I think that's fair. I think until you really understand the hobby, I do think there is a... The temptation to play it in such a way that it's all about you winning and glory is strong.

Stephen:

I think it is. Yeah, it's a starting point for some people.

Barry:

Yeah.

Mark:

With great knowledge comes great responsibility because some people misquote rules and if you've got the guy on the table that you're kind of relying on to you know sometimes as a dm some players know a hell of a lot more about the game than you do and those players can become very valuable but sometimes and i have had players like this that they're they're not they're they're cherry picking their rules right for themselves primarily but then sometimes for other people do Do you find players like that?

Stephen:

Yeah, certainly people have quoted rules, then I've gone back and looked at it, and they've kind of missed out a paragraph or something at the end. You think, okay, let's change it slightly. But yeah, maybe less so of that one, because I generally check the rules myself.

Mark:

Generally, I don't trust the players as much as you do.

Stephen:

Yeah, I generally go, okay, I'm going to look at that one. I'm going to have to look at that one just to double check. I pretty much do that 99% of the time. I just don't trust anyone. But you obviously trust people too much.

Mark:

I do, yeah, because I don't have time to focus on the rules. I'm happy to give them the chance to, but sometimes you get to the end of the session and you think, did they do that right? And you look it up and you find out they didn't. They've missed a bit. John, have you had any?

Jon:

I've found that more with Rafiq 5th edition D&D because I'm not familiar with it. So a lot of the spells and stuff, they'll have like the main paragraphs. Normally, I learn what, hear what the spell is and check it afterwards between the session. Let it slide for the narrative at the beginning or on the Discord put up the actual thing and that's what it was. And that's it. We move on. Most of my players on Wednesday are really new, but they're really good. They don't play any of that.

Mark:

So it's never deliberate. I suppose it's difficult to spot a deliberate act of somebody doing that.

Jon:

Even if it is. You just clarify it between. So everything still flows. Everything still happens. and if something doesn't happen next time, it doesn't happen next time.

Mark:

It's not an issue. So you have rules as written or rules as intended.

Jon:

I'm a bugger for the rule of cool as well. If someone wants to tweak a spell description, so it still does the same thing, but half the time I'm going to go with it if it's awesome.

Mark:

Barry, you got anything to mention on this? You've never employed that yourself? Have you thought about, well, that could be read this way, it could be read that way?

Barry:

With no knowledge comes no responsibility so no I'm good no so um, I think this is a genuine thing. I think you'll have two people read exactly the same rule and interpret it differently. And I don't think that's a flaw with the way it's written. I think that's just, it comes up in work all the time with policy. You'll have a manager read a policy, and then you read the policy, and you're like, we think this says different fucking things, and it's the same words. So I kind of understand that there will always be some questioning and stuff like that. But I'm with John. if it isn't an outrageous cheat um the rule of call you know i have no problem with a dm going yeah i'm gonna let that happen because that pushes the story forward that's the most important thing um i mean you know me i i kind of have picked quite a lot of this stuff up with osmosis now and i do i will be like oh no i don't think that's like if it's important um and it's changing the narrative massively i will be like i don't think we're applying that rule 100 correctly so you're Calling it out at the right times. But I'll say it in such a way as, can we just check that?

Mark:

There is a DM in you, Barry. There has to be. That's exactly how I feel about it. Because, yeah, don't call out the little things. Pick your battles in a way.

Jon:

Yeah.

Mark:

And if it's going to affect the narrative.

Jon:

Then it's worth a double check. If it's a character death or something like that, then, yeah, look that shit up.

Barry:

You were using TimeStop when you were using it. And it was a combat encounter. And this was when you were DMing. So it's not just calling it out with players. You've got to stay on top of your DM as well. And I was like, can we just check that, Mark? Because I don't think you're using that rule entirely correctly. And you weren't. It wasn't... You weren't. You weren't. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, it was because it had changed from one of the old editions and you was applying it from a previous edition, if that makes sense.

Mark:

Yeah, they do. The things were harsher in previous editions. You're continually getting caught out with a fifth edition.

Stephen:

Time stop's still pretty good in fifth edition, I remember.

Barry:

So the thing, if memory serves me correctly, with time stop, the minute you attack someone, it stops. And you were using it to try and slaughter a soul.

Stephen:

Well, as soon as you do damage.

Barry:

As soon as you do damage.

Stephen:

It stops. So you've got to do damage in the last round of it.

Barry:

Yeah.

Stephen:

That's right delayed blast fireball is the way to do it and then just leave it leave it leave it and do a few of those and then time stops and they all go off yeah jeez.

Mark:

That's what it encourages that.

Stephen:

Well yes but do the Aseric encounter that's the only time I've used it that's the encounter that Barry's talking about Aseric.

Mark:

At the end of Tomb of Horrors well Tomb of Annihilation.

Stephen:

Tomb of Annihilation Tomb of Annihilation so you get time stops spoilers for anyone yeah there's spoilers there oh yeah.

Jon:

Woofie do you know what I think that's the first time that we've had a spoiler though.

Stephen:

Edit it out.

Jon:

Yeah. It was trash.

Mark:

He's got time stop.

Stephen:

Just bleep his name out.

Mark:

It didn't do him any good.

Jon:

We definitely haven't just edited that section. But you cheated, obviously.

Mark:

I had a player that was really, really doing the encounter, but I won't even go into it. He completely and utterly nerfed the encounter himself, and it was an anticlimactic encounter because of one player. And we can move on to the last point here.

Jon:

I just want to do one other little bit about the wording of spells and stuff. one of the biggest discrepancies we found was the difference between say a spell restores hit points or gives you hit points and that can change how someone does something so if they're casting a spell to try to gain bonus hit points, but the spell only regains, then that will change it. But again, you find out tween sessions or something like that. It's little bits like that you've got to look for.

Mark:

There's a lot of things like that.

Jon:

It's not cheating. It's just if you read it quickly.

Mark:

Repeat offenders, though. I don't know.

Jon:

I haven't had that.

Mark:

No, you've not had that. It's been good.

Jon:

It's just been the way it is.

Mark:

All right. So, yeah, so moving on to the next part, I think, which is something that affected me in that encounter. and this is min-maxing. I think that's cheating.

Stephen:

I don't think that's cheating.

Mark:

That's part of the game. But it is if the DM tells you don't do it and everybody else has not done it. It depends on how far. It's not cheating, but it's antisocial.

Stephen:

It's not cheating.

Jon:

If someone turns up with a pre-gened character sheet and it's 18 and everything, yeah, call that shit.

Stephen:

Yeah, I had some.

Jon:

That's not min-maxing.

Mark:

That's just maxing out. Yeah, it's maxing out. I mean, min-maxing is using the rules to advantage and, you know, making everything that makes you stronger in combat, throwing it into that at the detriment of anything else. And it does work. It works very well.

Stephen:

I don't think that's to you. I think that's a fair game, to be fair.

Jon:

I mean, if it's a solo computer game, I will do that all the time. Same as a fighting fantasy game book. You assume you win the fight because it's just going back over everything otherwise. But the puzzles and stuff, those you go through. but.

Mark:

The trouble is, if you max out your combat stats, you're an advantage. If you max out your intelligence stats and you come across a puzzle, the DM doesn't say make an intelligence roll, you solve the puzzle. You're stuck there with your own brain power having to work that out.

Stephen:

Yeah, this is about cheating. That's about getting an advantage, but that's not cheating.

Mark:

If the DM says no min-maxing, okay.

Stephen:

Why? That's cheating for the DM, isn't it? That's a DM cheat. No min-maxing, please, so my venture would lose.

Barry:

Okay so i think min maxing is less fun but i don't think it's cheating yeah um did anyone see the video fairly recently of i can't remember her name but she was interviewing oh god i can't remember his name either what's the guy who played the punisher joe benthall benth anyway she was he she and she did this like do you want to play dnd and he was like yeah and she was like no right now and she went and she did and then i know we're talking about stuff like that but then but then he said, and I thought it was a really good question, he was like, why don't you, so you create your sheet? And she was like, yeah. She said, well, why don't you just make it so that you're brilliant at everything? And she was like, because flaws are interesting. Weaknesses are interesting. It's like, you know.

Stephen:

Well, me and Maxson, you're not brilliant at everything.

Barry:

No, I know.

Stephen:

You're only brilliant at one thing. That's the thing about it. As a DM, you shouldn't be worried about it because they're shit at everything else.

Mark:

And it happens to be combat all the time.

Stephen:

Yeah, but if it's not all about combat, then they are really rubbish at other stuff and they will regret that decision. And they will change their character, in my experience.

Barry:

It is up to the DM to allocate those consequences, isn't it? It do.

Stephen:

I've heard plenty of players, me and Max, and they get bored of their players.

Barry:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen:

But very quickly.

Barry:

I mean, and don't get me wrong, I get it. Like, if I'm playing a warlock, I'm putting my highest dice roll in Charisma. But beyond that, I am making genuine decisions.

Stephen:

I think it's more interesting to not min-max.

Barry:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephen:

They get bored of it incredibly fast.

Mark:

But it's really difficult to balance an encounter for a group of players that only one of them's min-max. So if you stage the encounter for the strongest one to challenge him, the rest of them have got no...

Stephen:

The rest of them die and then they make up new characters as min-max, which is the natural selection of things.

Jon:

That's a balance problem. I had this when I was in the early days of Refugee Shadow I'm not with my current group. We had a troll with this combat axe thing and just went around moshing everything, which was great. But the rest of the party was more role-play based, investigative. And if a fight or when a fight kicked off, because the troll initiated combat as a first option, other people got mullered. And you've got that whole balance thing. You might find it in other games if, you know, a fighter charges off all the time.

Mark:

It's other people killed.

Jon:

It's situational.

Mark:

I think if you're, you know, I don't like it, Min Max. I think it's a form of cheating. I think it's unnecessary. Most people wouldn't do it. You look at the game and you want to create a character. You just do so naturally. You don't think I'm going to make sure my combat stats is where I'm loading everything up into.

Barry:

Right. Hold on, hold on. Is it against the rules?

Mark:

It is if the DM asks you not to do it.

Barry:

Right, okay. Is it against the rules as written?

Mark:

No.

Barry:

Then it isn't cheating as written. I agree with you. It's not a fabulous way to play the game, but it isn't cheating. It isn't dishonest. It is literally honest. Your stats are there for everyone to see.

Stephen:

I think most people don't, me and Max said, but everybody, if they pick a character, are good at something. Everyone's better at something than other people, but they're the people that use the rules. They slightly maybe bend the rules. That's when there's cheating.

Mark:

Break the rules. they can actually do.

Jon:

This is what a point by...

Stephen:

Well, break it, then you... Yeah, that's going to a different level in Min Max. If you're using the rules just to be good at... If you're a fighter, you've got good age strength and crap charisma.

Mark:

Yeah, I agree. Breaking the rules has happened quite often with Min Max. Some spells don't...

Stephen:

Some spells allow you to kind of break the rules a little bit, like the spells that heal you. If you have the creatures you can sacrifice and some things you can bet on your rat.

Mark:

Some systems can't survive Min Max. They literally break down. Cyberpunk.

Stephen:

Yeah, but that's badly written systems, isn't it?

Barry:

Can I clarify something here? Because you just said, like, MinMaxim breaks the rules, but then you went on to say about how it breaks the system. So when you say breaks the rules, you mean the rules?

Mark:

Breaks the game. It means the system. Yeah, it breaks the game. Because you've got one player that is just, you know, it's become so obscenely powerful that you cannot do anything with that.

Stephen:

There's more playtests you before from a lot of these things.

Jon:

So because of that, that's why some systems are brought in point-by stuff, like Shadowrun the later editions you allocate your points anyway but they do you can only put so many points in that so many points in that D&D's got it on D&D Beyond you've got your allocations so everyone can allocate but they're maxed out to a certain point it's not I definitely randomly rolled all those 18s it's not a thing yeah.

Mark:

That's cheating within character generation and that happens a lot, doesn't it? That's dice roll cheating in the game where you have a character come along and you think, you've rolled those? Come on. Be serious. But the medics cheating, I think, like you say, isn't by the rules. It is...

Barry:

I've never generated a character...

Mark:

In private no but that's.

Barry:

Just an easy fix yeah that's session zero you know you.

Mark:

You're rolling your stats.

Barry:

In front of everyone that you're playing with just remove that temptation and that opportunity.

Mark:

Because that's just too easy yeah so session zero.

Jon:

Is always a good option for that.

Mark:

Well session.

Barry:

Zero is a really good fun as well it's not just about like you know making sure that everyone creates their character fairly i really like the how you end up talking about it and where you're going like you know.

Mark:

That stuff's worth doing that i hope you guys listen to it and enjoyed our session zero as well and that is the that's the time to do it yeah and make sure all dice rolls are seen in character generation i've always done that myself make sure people see each other's dice rolls it's um it's important because otherwise you're going to be having character envy for for the campaign aren't you looking at somebody else's statistics and thinking this you know at least i saw him roll them you know i can get i can deal with that a little bit easier uh okay i think we're at the at the end then unless anybody has anything to add any other forms of cheating that they may have personally i'll keep that to myself actually any more i was going to ask us all in turn what if they were to cheat or they have cheated which one of the things we've spoken about is their weakness is the one that they might be more inclined to do so i'll start with you barry that'd be honest a little just it's a confession booth now um.

Barry:

Well i've already admitted to doing it and and it was genuinely unintended but idea i think the resource management because i think everywhere as well with everyone knowing about like you know my dyslexia and my adhd i also think people would if i was doing it deliberately people would be inclined to think that i wasn't.

Mark:

Yeah good cover i like it yeah it's a little bit of that i think yeah most of us are good with that our account and the things like that john what's yours.

Jon:

I'm mostly forgetful so i mean stuff like that last night i i lost track of the wounds and stuff like that when i got one up senility.

Stephen:

Is that yeah okay that's.

Jon:

That's always been.

Stephen:

Everyone's got excuses.

Jon:

It's reasons actual cheating john uh not pretend when i when i was young yeah i had in stacks of character sheets with you know 18s and everything and three and charisma to balance it out i never played them no one wanted to and that's fair but it passed the time so.

Mark:

If you were generating a character on your own would you would.

Jon:

You be able to choose solo uh computer game something like that absolutely max the fuck out of it because i'm not interested in going back for that but for a party no not not not not in co-op play so.

Mark:

We have a pure soul at the table that's great well.

Jon:

You take that, well.

Stephen:

You lot think that having sort of like dice that are old well cheating.

Jon:

So yeah sign me up for that one and well i've already admitted i.

Stephen:

Use a d10 instead of a d20 in a game that was a long time ago uh you're going i think i've done them all really resource management i'm sure i've yeah i've sort of added a few things i'm pretty sure i have i've been playing long enough i mean i'll be fair i've probably done them all apart from the reading i can't i can't take the reading i would never do that okay i.

Jon:

Love you steven it's like you've been the whole telling us about how you're not a cheat.

Barry:

We did the episode and cheat, and then you end with, I think I've done it all!

Stephen:

I'm going to be honest, I've been playing for like a long time, 40 odd years.

Jon:

That's just the ones he's admitted to us.

Stephen:

There's no doubt.

Barry:

Sorry, I know you said we're coming to an end, but I think that's a really, really, really important distinction. There is a big, for me, there is a big difference between a nine-year-old cheating and a 39-year-old cheating. Now, I can understand that temptation is harder to resist when you're a child and you want to do well. It needs to be dealt with, but it's dealt with in a very different way to if it's a grown-ass man. I just like to say.

Stephen:

Now I do not cheat in any way, shape, or form. I want you to know that, okay?

Barry:

Apart from the dice.

Stephen:

And speak to my lawyer, right? That's not cheating.

Mark:

It's all on record now. Yeah, I personally, I try and avoid most of them. Dice cheating is the one I'd be least likely to do of the lot.

Barry:

And I think the thing that's, I mean, dice cheating is, again, I think you're right because that is just properly, properly dishonest. But the reading ahead thing, I mean, I think that should be illegal. We should be punishing that in the harshest possible terms.

Mark:

Yeah, you can see it.

Barry:

Like you lose a pinky for each time and then all your fingers and toes are gone. That's a really – because that fucking spoils it for absolutely everyone. Because you're denying other people opportunities to naturally solve those puzzles, know where those items are, find those items. Yeah, for me, that's like – That's the big one. It's a huge one.

Stephen:

That is the biggest no-no.

Jon:

In the early days of the hobby, that was like a trope. You'd have the Knights of the Dinner Table comic, and they had particular characters in that that would be yelling at the ref because Room 4 has definitely not got those cop holes in it. It's got this and this. It was apparently a thing.

Barry:

Presumably, I know you guys have been around the block a lot, but presumably that kind of cheating is much easier to do now because you don't actually have to go out and buy the module.

Stephen:

You had to buy it.

Barry:

You had to buy it to cheat.

Jon:

And again, it just doesn't work. Yeah.

Stephen:

So that was taken away from me as a youngster.

Barry:

Do you think we've got many people that do that?

Mark:

We do. Yeah.

Barry:

We do.

Mark:

Could you just follow? Yeah, I'm not going to name names.

Barry:

Just, just, just, Give me a list. I'll deal with them. Okay.

Mark:

What do you use to cut off people's fingers?

Barry:

So I find the soccer tears are really good. I don't know if I said that right. But you know, like the gardening ones.

Jon:

They've got the curve. That's the ones.

Barry:

Yeah.

Stephen:

I quite like the guillotine things you get in our classes. They're easy to bring along. I'm sure there's one at a club somewhere.

Barry:

Let's just hold on, hold on. Listen, if you are in our society, if you play at Dice on the Hill and you read ahead, you're a wrong one.

Mark:

I thought we were about to threaten to cut their fingers off. This could get very dark and sinister, can't it?

Barry:

It's just implied for legal reasons. You need to understand the realities. The threat should be implied. That makes the subsequent court case much more likely to go in my favour.

Mark:

So two weeks after this episode goes live and our society drops down to two-fifths of what it was before.

Barry:

I'm going to come out and say this. I'm genuinely shocked that you say that there are... I don't think... Have I ever been at a table with someone that you think does it?

Mark:

Oh this is narrowing it down now uh actually no the table that we have and we played in generally speaking no yeah okay uh okay so by a process of elimination i've.

Barry:

Just eliminated six people from.

Mark:

My inquiries only another 50 or 60 to go it's fine yeah it's it is relatively um well i i've i find it if i if i if i know somebody's doing it i try and avoid the end to them and so once one's been twice shy I wouldn't go back to one of the pros of writing.

Jon:

Your own stuff yeah for sure because I mean I've done some uh, well most of it's pre-written scenarios but then i tailor the stuff for the characters and the skills and all that and if someone gets something it's completely out of the blue because that was never written down anywhere yeah and that that's it's amazing when it happens even if i have to throw away pages of stuff or tear it up in front of them yeah fuck you too yeah you've got peace of mind then.

Mark:

Haven't you? That nobody's doing that. And I think that's nice as a DM to sort of...

Jon:

There's a few of us that have a communally shared brain cell and I think sometimes that backfires.

Mark:

Okay, so we're going to finish. So I didn't bring it because Barry, you said you were going to write a word of wisdom for Stephen's heart.

Barry:

No, no, no, no.

Jon:

No, no, no. Did you not?

Barry:

No, no, no, no. That wasn't what I said. So I've been on a little bit of a project, right? One of the things and this has come up in the podcast.

Jon:

Collecting shears.

Barry:

One of the things that I absolutely love about this hobby is the mad shit that gets said. Like, I've never said the phrase, oh, I've never heard that sentence before, so many times as when I got round a TTRPG table. I'm going to start off with my absolute favourite. This is my absolute favourite. I'm growing as a person. It only took murder and drugs.

Jon:

And that was a table, though, yeah?

Barry:

That was absolutely a table. That was absolutely a table.

Jon:

And hopefully in character.

Mark:

As a person, I think that's in character.

Barry:

This is another one that I really enjoyed as well. I don't understand how you're disappointed. Toads can't talk.

Stephen:

Only at a gaming table.

Barry:

But it's true though. But again, only at a gaming table. Is that going to come up?

Mark:

Yeah, only at a gaming table section now. Stephen, you lost your slot.

Stephen:

Okay, that's fine, yeah. That's the season two. It wasn't really my slot, was it? It was your words of wisdom he was adding to me. I didn't, I didn't read the scenario. Someone said it might. That's the funniest thing I've heard.

Mark:

Right, guys. Nice one. So we're finished for today. Well, somebody's got to say it.

Stephen:

Oh, hang on. What is it?

Mark:

Oh, we'll give you that.

Stephen:

So let's...

Jon:

Slice and dice.

Head Shot

Mark (Wēland)

Host
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Barry (Silas)

Co-host
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Jon (Facthunt)

Co-host
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Stephen (Dorian)

Co-host
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Dawn (Elspeth)

Producer

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