Painting Minis

In this episode, we chat with Little Mark, a miniature painting expert, about the impact of miniatures in tabletop RPGs and the therapeutic benefits of painting. He shares his personal journey, evolving from a novice to a competition-level painter, while emphasizing the joy of the process over perfection. We discuss essential techniques and tools for beginners and highlight the supportive community surrounding miniature painting. The Blokes then take on a challenge to paint a miniature representing their RPG Blokes alter-egos!

FAQs

1. What’s this episode about? We sit down with our resident miniature painting expert, Little Mark, to discuss the art, techniques, and mental health benefits of painting figures for your tabletop games.

2. Who is Little Mark? He is a long-time friend of the Blokes, a paramedic, a former Games Workshop employee, and an award-winning miniature painter who has competed at the highest levels of the hobby.

3. I’ve never painted a miniature. Is this episode for me? Absolutely. While Mark shares stories from elite competitions, a massive part of this episode focuses on getting over the fear of the unpainted plastic and learning how to start simply.

4. What equipment do I need to start? Mark breaks it down to a few essentials: a decent synthetic brush (like a Winsor & Newton size 2), a daylight lamp so you aren’t painting in the dark, magnifying goggles if your eyesight needs a hand, and your choice of paints.

5. What is the “Slap Chop” technique? It’s a highly recommended, quick method for beginners. You undercoat the model black, dry brush it with lighter colours to catch the raised edges, and then apply thin inks. It naturally creates highlights and shadows for you.

6. Do I really need to thin my paints? Yes. It is the golden rule. Paint straight out of the pot is too thick and leaves brush marks. Mark recommends thinning it with water until it has the consistency of milk.

7. What is the Golden Demon? It is Games Workshop’s premier, highly prestigious painting competition. Mark shares his experience of dedicating 150 hours to a single Imperial Guard model and making it to the final five.

8. What is the Alter-Ego Painting Challenge? By the end of the episode, the Blokes agree to a daunting challenge: to buy, build, and paint miniatures representing their own RPG alter-egos by the end of the season.

​

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People on this Episode

Episode Transcript

Mark: 00:00
Welcome to RPG Blokes. Today we’re diving into something that adds a splash of colour to your games, quite literally, miniatures. None of us are experts with a brush, although we love what minis add to a game. So we’ve brought in some expertise, someone who can hopefully stop us gluing our fingers together and help us understand what we’re meant to be doing with all that unpainted plastic lying around. So, please welcome our very own miniature expert, Little Mark.

Stephen: 00:43
Hey!

Track 6: 00:44
Hey! Hello! Yeah, hello.

Mark: 00:46
Good evening, boys. Welcome to RPG Blokes, Mark.

Track 6: 00:48
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Mark: 00:49
Okay.

Jon: 00:50
You are now the fifth beetle.

Track 6: 00:52
He didn’t last long, didn’t he, the fifth beetle? Oh, well.

Mark: 00:55
I think he committed suicide at some point. but don’t worry well brilliant.

Track 6: 00:58
I was on about him leaving the band.

Mark: 01:00
So little mark is a fine example of what paint fumes and lead can do to your physical growth from the age of 12 well.

Jon: 01:07
You’ve just triggered at least a million nerds.

Mark: 01:13
Okay then um so what i do is going to break this down into three parts this podcast this interview of you mark and so we get to know more about you you know what you’ve done in the hobby, and what you can tell us about figure painting and talk about your origin story tell us um how you got into painting collecting minis and kind of what what started it all off oh.

Track 6: 01:35
Yeah it’s um so when i was what 14 13 14 i was a lost little soul and uh and i wasn’t really doing much in my life and i managed to go to a role play game which is where i bumped into you two, mark and steve was amazing it was a chance to be it was a chance to get out of the doldrums that i was in quite a poor family so i played games for years with with you guys until i ended up moving away obviously and i started to get into the painting part of it as well and what i found when i was younger is that my my release as such my to make me relax to help my mind was to paint figures because for two to three hours i could just turn off from the stresses that are around me and just and just concentrate on one little thing i’m a paramedic now and so that can get quite quite stressy so the ability just to sit down and just turn off for a little while is what keeps me sane really if i’m honest so.

Mark: 02:23
You started playing the games i remember yeah when you first.

Track 6: 02:25
Yeah i killed you on a on a pedal bike didn’t i.

Mark: 02:28
Oh yeah yeah because your bike did no brakes it was one of.

Track 6: 02:30
Those bmx’s it was a stunt bike.

Mark: 02:32
Yeah well it’s good to know that before i accelerate off on it stunt bike.

Jon: 02:35
By default from town.

Track 6: 02:37
So you.

Mark: 02:38
Weren’t painting figures right from the off though were you.

Track 6: 02:40
Yeah i was role-playing for a long time and then um it was you guys that kind of helped me picked myself up and stuff like that and i ended up getting a job

Track 6: 02:47
for with a company called games workshop uh which i’m pretty sure our audience know about i worked for them for a good five years, and then i got into painting models to a serious level and started to enter competitions and stuff like that and that’s where it built from there really so.

Mark: 03:01
What what now comes first for you do you think painting or playing it’s not something you’ve continued painting through through a period of time you’ve not been playing haven’t you but you know initially it was the playing of the game first the role-playing games.

Track 6: 03:13
Yes moved yeah so originally it was the playing and then obviously exactly as you said it stopped playing for a while and now i go to a lot of gaming events for a games games game called blood bowl and uh i mainly enter the painting competition that’s that’s why i go to go there uh and thankfully i’ve won i’ve won five major competitions through through them yeah i’ve done all right yeah so.

Mark: 03:35
Just on blood bowl your competitions have been won.

Track 6: 03:38
Yeah yeah you enter a team of 11 to 16 players and you could do a little scenery board and they’ve all got to kind of follow a theme um and i paint them and then yeah i’ve ended up giving a few of them away as as prizes actually some of my teams and stuff for people that have difficulty painting so so you paint a team of 16 models and then you go and play a competition with them and what i’ve done is after i won the painting competition i’ve ended up giving them away to people that have either can’t paint or or don’t want to or find it quite hard to do it and so i just give them a bit of it’s not it’s not our ego it’s just to i remember when i went to workshop and stuff you used to see these gorgeous painted models and you could never get to the same level, so i thought i’d just give someone a chance and just give them a bit of a bit of some inspiration and they could they have them so i just paint them pay for them just give them away we.

Mark: 04:23
Remember blood bowl being something that didn’t even have miniatures to begin with did it.

Stephen: 04:27
No it had those little cards didn’t it on the stands so you didn’t have to paint them or put anything together so they’re kind of like an array of little cards of different sizes wouldn’t they depend on the size of the the creature wasn’t it it’s come a long way isn’t it since then no yeah i suppose he did trust people that they wanted to stick things together because i remember our first one we got mark do you remember we bought the space marine set the early ones with the really pointy faces and they were i remember being a little bit confused when they come in all these sprues and stuff you had to take them all out and glue them all together i think that was my first confusion with them with a figure because we bought other figures didn’t we that were kind of in packs that were all assembled but i don’t know when they started to put me into separate parts that was a games workshop thing.

Mark: 05:06
Wasn’t it yeah they.

Stephen: 05:06
Made the decision.

Mark: 05:07
Didn’t they to mass produce in plastic but we when we began figure painting which.

Stephen: 05:11
I only did when.

Mark: 05:11
I was a kid but they were we we got led led figures and we bought them for our characters they were ralp arthur i think down the local high street games.

Stephen: 05:19
Workshop wasn’t.

Mark: 05:20
Really appealing to us but then it suddenly began to and those um i remember they were the blood marines weren’t they that blood.

Stephen: 05:27
Angels yeah there were loads of them there’s those and then you got all the plastic once you put them together then you you’ve got to paint them all so it’s kind of i suppose what do you prefer do you prefer painting single figures or mass mass paints so.

Track 6: 05:40
I i prefer entering uh painting competition with single single models but nothing i must admit nothing does look better than having an entire painted army on the table that looks quite good it’s quite awe-inspiring really.

Stephen: 05:50
When you.

Track 6: 05:51
When you see him done.

Stephen: 05:52
Quite frightening those are the you open it up and having to paint the lot from that’s what what puts me off of it yeah.

Track 6: 05:57
Yeah and that goes back to my point that so what i was doing was i was painting one or two figures and giving them to people to kind of hopefully inspire them to finish their armies you know but you are right if you if you took a space marine army like you’re talking about you could have close to 40 figures yeah maybe if you took something like an imperial guard i mean you’d have close to 120 figures so, you know it does go on for a while.

Mark: 06:19
Because we’re not we’re not into the games workshop side of things our podcast very rarely is going to go into those into those fields we’re more into figures miniatures for the sake of playing a role-playing game as i represent your character and we none of us paint but we all love having figures barry you in particular you do take your miniatures very seriously.

Barry: 06:39
Figures are absolutely one of the joys of the hobby i had a go at painting miniatures it was what kind of got me here today i was looking for something to do with my son and i just took him to a games workshop one day went in there um planning to spend 60 pounds something like that came out having spent 180 i don’t think that’s an uncommon experience from talking to other people the upsell they have absolutely mastered it and then we painted them and we played but we barely played the time that was joyous with my little boy was the time that we were sitting there painting together and then we kind of found the club through someone that we met doing that if that makes sense in terms of my role my role playing games i absolutely love having a figure to represent my guy and you know i’m i’m lucky enough to know someone who can paint to a very high standard who is always willing to do so you know you’re absolutely right as well there’s something awe-inspiring about when you see an entire army painted you know not only is each individual one absolutely incredible that when you take them as a mass there’s something very awe-inspiring about it i like i as objects i love them i just kind of also know that i don’t think that i would ever be able to paint one that i was ever truly happy with i like having them but i have no problem, passing over the work to someone else.

Mark: 08:07
But while we print them now 3d printing is a big thing in our society so you get exactly what you want but you know i we i’m just as happy to play a game and put the miniatures on the table unpainted i thought i i look at them more from just their practical use than i i don’t get overly um stimulated by it by the way they’re painted so they are a bit i must say it’s a little bit they just have a bit disrespectful signify.

Barry: 08:32
Something and that is it.

Mark: 08:33
Yeah that’s the thing and um paint monkey as well he he really puts a lot of work and effort in so he he done the death may die box out this is a um it was kickstarter and it’s got about it’s cthulhu kickstarter it’s got about 50 figures in it yeah brilliant i mean he done how many hours he spent painting this all the all the all of the miniatures in it it’s a it’s a work of art it’s the value of it must be well it used to be quite quite good but it fell out the back of my car as i was driving over to the society once and the car behind me drove over the entire box the like everything just went up in the air i got out of the car realized my boot wasn’t wasn’t closed properly got out quickly parked to the side went to pick it up and the car just shot hit the box just the whole lot on top of shooter seal me and my son stopped the traffic for 10 minutes people were getting out of the cars helping me pick up all of the all of the figures and i managed to, i felt very bad about it and you know paint monkey wasn’t particularly happy but he did fix a lot of things and the amount of work that goes into it so yeah mark so when you’re talking about painting one figure for that that’s a fair

Mark: 09:42
bit of work but painting an army is another another matter we don’t want to frighten people off you.

Track 6: 09:46
Can paint a figure to a relatively good standard within a few hours really if you use the if you use the correct techniques but you must remember yeah there would be people in this world that are just born, ultimately good at it and and you’ll never get to that level it’s not it’s not a challenge that way it’s it’s your own it’s what inspires you and and you get to a level that you enjoy that’s all it really matters you do get better.

Mark: 10:06
The more you do it.

Track 6: 10:07
Yeah yeah it’s like it’s repetition isn’t it yeah so the more you do but.

Barry: 10:11
Like can i echo that as well because when i when me and charlie we did paint a few half decent ones every now and then do you know what i mean and it’s like um, how do you feel now one of the things that i think is really interesting about like people skills and hobbies these days is that the experts are the most available that they’ve ever been.

Track 6: 10:29
Yeah you’re yeah you’re right yeah the the access to the information that was happening before when i was a workshop exists now when i was back there it was like you you’re certain that at one point they were taken off to some ancient monastery somewhere and taught some sort of ancient skill by by monks where there’s an earthquake and it’s disappeared and no one ever knows again do you know i mean and it was like a kind of hidden process but now you can with with a couple of clicks of a mouse you can find relatively good tutorials it’s just it’s just practice it honestly it really is it’s practice a couple of.

Mark: 10:55
Hours would would everybody spend a couple of hours do you think or is that just what an expert would spend or you could if you had never painted a figure before is a couple of hours enough time to put aside to get.

Track 6: 11:04
Something yeah honestly so we’ve cut with with with with the models that we want to use in our roleplay games and stuff they’re very personal aren’t they and you know and you want to get you want to put individual colors on them and stuff like so you don’t need to follow any kind of trend, and as long as you put nice block colors on it looks fine it looks fine because you must remember that not everyone when you’re playing these role play games you’re not you haven’t got the model in front of your face a couple inches from your face have you it’s on a table and you’re sitting with your mates like you know there’s mostly half speared cans of coke and doritos everywhere and stuff like that you know so that the model is is is is more than arm’s length away it’s only when you start entering competitions you have to start worrying about all the things that i worry about Yeah.

Stephen: 11:42
The eye is perfect, you mean?

Track 6: 11:44
Well, I have to paint, for a competition, I not only have to paint the eye, I have to paint the iris and the eye colour.

Stephen: 11:49
Damn, that’s the trouble. I just sort of like stick some white blobs in there now.

Track 6: 11:52
No.

Stephen: 11:52
That’ll do.

Track 6: 11:53
No.

Stephen: 11:54
Not for you.

Track 6: 11:55
No, I have to do everything, yeah.

Mark: 11:57
John, you painted a lot.

Jon: 11:60
Not in the slightest. I’m very intimidated by any artistic expression. My stickmen are wonky. I think I might be partially colourblind. I keep trying to buy the missiest purple flowers and I’ve turned up with dark pink, funny coloured blues.

Mark: 12:21
I’d love to see a figure that you painted there. You can’t do it.

Track 6: 12:28
He’ll do it and he’ll come back and it’ll be like the mona lisa it’ll be like the perfect model ever you know.

Stephen: 12:32
Just the wrong colors it’ll be flawless and.

Mark: 12:36
He’ll have no nose yeah yeah that’s right you can always file the nose off you know you can modify your so they look like your characters so steven what level of painting have you done there’s anything you’ve done.

Stephen: 12:45
Level yeah level i suppose or.

Mark: 12:47
Amount i suppose how many figures have you.

Stephen: 12:49
Painted in your life quite a few we when we first started playing when i was quite young we had gave it a good crack didn’t we so So we used to sit at the kitchen table and get our lead figures out and just splash some paint. They were awful. But then I guess I have bought games like Blood Bowl and I’ve recently, I suppose, and painted again. That’s the first time I’ve been painting years. That was quite intimidating.

Track 6: 13:11
What team the.

Stephen: 13:12
Starter box i well i bought a couple of teams as well but i got the um the ones in the starter box i had a bit of disaster with the one in the starter box because the star player for one of the teams i glued his head on backwards.

Track 6: 13:21
Griffable world and.

Stephen: 13:23
I didn’t realize it until.

Track 6: 13:24
Later it.

Stephen: 13:27
Looked fine it was just on backwards i painted it all and i thought is it doesn’t look right.

Mark: 13:31
You’re not going to win a golden demon with that then are you yeah.

Stephen: 13:35
I suppose i’ve done it steadily i think over my role-playing game career uh nothing too intense just now and again i dabbled.

Mark: 13:42
So yeah moving on to just um giving people some advice on starting out so imagine if one of our listeners has just joined a group and and seeing other people with their minis for their characters and and wants to to do the same for themselves.

Track 6: 13:56
Just maybe.

Mark: 13:58
Tell us how he would go about doing it from you know to come into the next session maybe a week’s time he wants to come in with his figure painted out how is it how would he go about that.

Track 6: 14:07
It’s like a being a builder you’re as good as your tools if i had to pick anything you need to buy a decent thing of it’d be a brush this one truth be told yeah i make the brand i like to use is called winsor newton um they do brushes between size zero to size four and i paint 90 of my models with a size two brush because it’s the tip of the brush that’s the important bit the as long as you look after your brush i mean i’ve had the same brushes for years never get paint above the bristles of the brush never go to what’s called the femal which is the metal bit because if the paint goes underneath the femal when paint dries it expands and your paintbrush goes from nice and pointy to being like a star yeah so only ever put paint halfway up those bristles basically which means it takes a little bit longer to paint them but it’s what you want the next thing is some decent paints now paints are very individual you know games workshop does a whole raft of paints which are good there’s other there’s other companies that do them ak and stuff like that find the colors that work for you, and and go down that route there’s no loyalty there you know and.

Mark: 15:08
What about lighting and we’re a podcast that’s appealing to the older player the older.

Track 6: 15:12
New player.

Mark: 15:13
And a lot of us have got our eyesight’s going a little bit and maybe.

Track 6: 15:16
I don’t know not quite shaking we’re not that old but.

Mark: 15:20
You know what i mean there are tools that you could use and they to make make it easier for yourself to.

Track 6: 15:25
See what you’re doing and things like that i would recommend a daylight lamp if you paint a color to normal lights in your house everything will turn out a little bit yellow uh and in your house under your normal lighting it’ll look good the moment you take it outside into the sunshine or it’s anywhere with some decent lights it’ll all look off so buying a decent daylight light is very good but they are quite expensive and then i have a pair of goggles the.

Stephen: 15:49
Game changes there i got some of those.

Track 6: 15:51
Yeah because.

Stephen: 15:52
Mark i can’t see shit and they’ve got a light on the front yeah.

Track 6: 15:54
Like a minus.

Stephen: 15:55
Lamp honestly i could not paint any figures without that.

Mark: 15:58
Why don’t you use them for dming because i’ve seen you struggle a bit there too well.

Stephen: 16:02
Yeah they look a bit stupid.

Track 6: 16:06
To be fair but.

Stephen: 16:07
You look like a mad scientist.

Track 6: 16:08
You do look like a mad scientist yeah yeah you do so but but you are right they are game-changing so yeah it’s number one would be a decent paintbrush or decent paintbrush set leading on from that would be a decent daylight light from there decent set of magnification and then the paints as you choose so.

Mark: 16:23
It’s a one-off investment really as far as somebody that’s just painting figures for their for a character so with.

Track 6: 16:28
The stuff.

Mark: 16:28
They get and the paint and the paintbrushes apart from them purchasing the minis when they need them that initial investment appears to be about it. I always thought the paintbrushes sort of had a lifespan and you might get, Three weeks out of one or something like that. I’m surprised to know that they last so long.

Track 6: 16:45
Yeah, well, if you look after them. So I take it to the nth degree, don’t I? So you get quite attached to them. I have a paintbrush, a Winsorneaton size zero paintbrush that I only use for eyes because I’m adamant, adamant that it is better than any other brush I’ve ever used painting eyes. Now, I’m sane enough to realise that’s not the case, but I’m telling you, all the eyes I’ve painted on, all the models I’ve given you were painted by that size zero brush.

Mark: 17:09
So what happens if you get the eyes wrong? You just start again, right? And then if you get them wrong again, this is what happened when I was painting. I remember now, the eyes, it took me about 10 times. By the time they’d finished, the layers of paint made it look like it had the Innsmouth look. You know, it was, his eyes were bulging.

Track 6: 17:24
Bulging.

Mark: 17:25
Yeah, you got to get it right first time if you were a pro, right?

Track 6: 17:27
Yeah yeah yeah but you usually use really thin paints when you get to when you get to competition level your paints are almost like water because you need to you need to make the graduation so subtle so it looks like an actual piece of cloth where it actually looks like flames it’s got to be so gentle uh when it comes to eyes and stuff there are a few techniques you can do it yeah yeah you’ve got to be careful it’s a tricky thing but so.

Barry: 17:51
So like yeah as an rpg you’re not going to be painting miniatures sort of week in week out like you are but i could see how someone could get obsessed with the painting side of it as well but listening to you it’s okay i know you mentioned the daylight light but it sounds like a relatively inexpensive hobby especially now there’s so many miniatures manufacturers and 3d printing and stuff like that on the market is that right.

Track 6: 18:13
Yeah yeah true yeah yeah whether you love or loathe games workshop they’re expensive because they are good yeah they are they are they are good models and they are they’re well done but you’re bang on you can go into etsy and just get some 3d printed ones yeah and in fact games workshop models only cater the games workshop games the you’ll be lucky if you find a priest of sigma carrying a warhammer with leather armor prime example you it’s too niche you’d never got a better chance.

Mark: 18:38
Of finding that than you ever finding barry’s warlock for instance.

Track 6: 18:40
Have you looked barry.

Mark: 18:42
Have you ever looked at games workshop stock when you’re looking to to have character figures or is it somewhere you just don’t know because.

Barry: 18:48
I’ve just otherwise known that they do their stuff exclusively.

Track 6: 18:52
Yeah, and you’d have to buy a squad, wouldn’t you, to get one model.

Barry: 18:54
Absolutely. You said something much, much, much earlier on as well that I just

Barry: 18:57
wanted to circle back to because I really liked it when you were talking about being a bit of a wobbly young man. I remember it well myself. And you said just being able to… focus on one small thing i mean is that a big part of the appeal for painting to you is it almost zen yeah.

Track 6: 19:13
Exactly that so when i’m in competitions and stuff i can wake up at eight o’clock in the morning start painting and the next thing i know it’s nine o’clock at night you know it just it just it goes by yeah and it’s not it’s not it’s not even the only thing i’d get up to go to is go to the loo or something i mean i’ve spent hundreds of hours on models.

Barry: 19:29
Yeah i think the appeal is obvious isn’t it it really is i.

Mark: 19:32
I envy people that that can have that experience while painting because i don’t have that experience doing anything i’m always thinking about the next thing i have to do i find it very difficult to settle even to to do a lego kit or something i speak to other people that have that same sense that painting allows them to focus and relax and chill and it’s it’s almost like a meditation if i ever do painting that’s what i want to experience i mean.

Barry: 19:53
Yeah and i can like i can really like relate to it i’ve had loads of hobbies that have kind of been like that i went for a phase soldering electronics kits like you can buy these kits you know build an fm radio build and like it’s just me and this problem in front of me that’s all it is there’s nothing else in the world just me and this one thing that i’m doing right now yeah.

Mark: 20:12
Maybe by the end of this we’ll all be going on amazon and looking for our daylight lights and and goggles and yeah it’s definitely got me thinking.

Barry: 20:20
Why don’t we all have a go at painting our um our.

Mark: 20:24
Alter egos okay.

Barry: 20:25
I can’t believe i’m saying this out loud because i realize i’ve just given myself another job but why don’t we all just look for a miniature that is nearest to our character that we can find and have a punt okay.

Mark: 20:36
I’ll take the.

Barry: 20:37
Challenge no getting coaching yeah.

Mark: 20:39
No getting paint monkey, well i.

Barry: 20:43
For one i’m accepting the challenge i am going to paint silas.

Mark: 20:47
Yeah i’m gonna i’m gonna find them somewhere.

Stephen: 20:50
Yeah identify them might be getting 3d printed could be somewhere.

Track 6: 20:53
If you go into etsy and just type in um fantasy model then type in the kind of description you get quite close you know.

Mark: 20:59
Yeah well we can maybe get one of them over to you mark and you can you can join the competition and i.

Barry: 21:03
Didn’t say it was a competition.

Mark: 21:05
Barry come on i know you well enough we.

Stephen: 21:08
Implied it was.

Mark: 21:09
No i didn’t imply.

Barry: 21:11
It was a competition i said it was a challenge that is not the same thing i’ll.

Track 6: 21:15
Tell you what we’re doing like the princess bride i’ll do it left-handed.

Mark: 21:18
Well you’ll have to video yourself doing that but do it with your feet i think what we do i think what we do is um we judge the competition that we need somebody to do that for us perhaps but on our wrap party during our season two debrief at the end of the year perhaps we can bring that into the season two debrief episode and you are.

Barry: 21:36
Absolutely sold on it being a competition i just need to change my mindset because that’s a completely different proposition for me but yeah all right all.

Mark: 21:43
Right yes uh so mark yeah as as far as starting off is concerned and people can youtube this shit to get more details i suppose on a few tuitions you don’t have a youtube channel anything that people can can look at you telling them but are there any techniques that you would immediately say yeah get that one do this you know i don’t know what even they might be called but if you can kind of, let people know to look out for this technique or that technique the.

Track 6: 22:09
Best way to start there’s something called slap chat believe it or not it’s a really easy way to do it what you do is you get your model you um undercoat it black and you get what’s called a dry brush yeah a paintbrush full of paint and you take most of it off so as you brush it over the model it only leaves like tiny little dots you do that all over the model, And then you use the ink color you want to do. And what you’ll find is it will naturally automatically make shading for you. Yeah. Because the paint only goes on the raised part, not on the recess. So as you put a red ink on it, it’ll be darker in the recess and lighter on the top. And that’s the easiest way to do it. Quick as that.

Mark: 22:46
That sounds very quick.

Stephen: 22:47
Barry’s making notes now.

Track 6: 22:49
Yeah.

Barry: 22:49
Of course I am. You’ve made it a competition. How foolish of me when people decided to make it a competition. to pay attention in effort to win the competition.

Mark: 23:02
So that’d be a quick way of painting the figure but what would you recommend the dry brushing technique anyway would you for people to look up because that’s something i remember doing.

Track 6: 23:10
Yeah dry brushing is a very effective way of painting models it has a really good basic effect and like i said when you’re looking at your models from two meters away from playing on a tabletop it’ll look brilliant and really really good yeah.

Mark: 23:22
And what would you recommend not to do what would be your your tips of to avoid.

Track 6: 23:26
Always um thin the paint never use the paint straight out of the pot yeah sorry.

Barry: 23:32
Why.

Mark: 23:33
Did you why did you say that barry.

Barry: 23:34
Some things get repeated a billion times because they absolutely foundational and this is one of those things is my understanding everyone’s yeah it’s it’s almost a catchphrase of painters right.

Track 6: 23:45
Yeah bang on yeah because what you do is if you use the paint straight out of the pot it’s so thick you’ll have brush marks.

Mark: 23:51
Okay. But most people would think, if anything, you know, they don’t want you watering down the paints because that means you get more value out of the pot. So I always think that using them as they are is probably how it was intended. But no?

Track 6: 24:03
No, no, not at all. No, no, not in any way. You want your paint effectively the consistency of milk. That’s how you want it. That’s the kind of level you want.

Mark: 24:12
A starting painter would want that, do you think?

Track 6: 24:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The best ratio is for each brush of paint, add two brushes of water. that.

Mark: 24:20
Sounds a bit too runny for me i just think it would go everywhere.

Track 6: 24:23
I mean you don’t want it like runny water but you you want it you want it to be so basically when you run your brush through the paint on your palette where you’ve stored your paint you want it to leave the fold if that makes sense so as you run your fit your paintbrush through it you want to leave the mark in the paint and.

Mark: 24:37
So then yeah don’t use paint as it is out the pot what other um tips particularly things not to do at this point.

Track 6: 24:43
Yeah the next thing is don’t overload your brush so like i said if you get that paint above the where the bristles are into the femal you’ll you’ll ruin your brush you could spend some of these brushes marker are like 30 quid a piece you know so looking after your brushes is a very important thing to do would you recommend.

Mark: 24:59
Somebody spends 30 pound on their first brush though.

Track 6: 25:02
No chance no don’t get yourself something nice and simple um synthetic brushes will be best thing to start with don’t get the stable ones the white expensive ones yeah the last one is let your paint dry i know that sounds really stupid but when you’re when you’re getting into it and you’re You paint an area, like let’s say you did a cloak and the back of the cloak touches the trousers, you’ll start painting the trousers and the red paint will run into the brown paint and you’ll never get it off. Yeah? So give your painting a chance to dry.

Mark: 25:30
How long does it take to dry? How long would you give it?

Track 6: 25:33
Minutes. It doesn’t take long at all.

Mark: 25:34
Okay. Because I’m impatient. I wouldn’t be able to wait very long. I just want to…

Track 6: 25:38
What you do is you paint areas that are not near each other. So you’d paint like the sword and then paint the boots while the sword’s drying kind of thing. That’s the way to do it.

Mark: 25:46
Okay so you don’t have to put it down and move away that’s how you yeah yeah so you put in the hours, what was your first figure you painted.

Track 6: 25:52
Was a blood bowl figure called count von drake he was a he was a star player he was a little cartoon vampire player unfortunately i haven’t got my original model but um it was bad okay you’re not too tempted to buy the buy.

Mark: 26:05
The figure again now and.

Track 6: 26:06
Repaint it it’s funny to mention that i asked exactly what i did yeah yeah i managed to find one and did it and yeah yeah it came out all right but yeah my original one was bad it was really bad I remember painting everything with a fine detail brush.

Jon: 26:20
I’ve just learned something about the paints. I didn’t realise they’d be water-soluble.

Track 6: 26:26
Most of them are. Be careful. Some of them are oil-based. Bizarrely, weirdly, another thing to talk about, all paint tastes different, just to let you know.

Barry: 26:34
Is that years of testing have led you to believe that? Love it.

Stephen: 26:38
What does Doblin Green taste like?

Track 6: 26:40
No, the best one, the best tasting paint I know of is called Calabrac Green, but there you go.

Mark: 26:44
Oh, different colours, different tastes.

Track 6: 26:47
Yeah, yeah. Because what you do is, it sounds horrible, but what you do is you clean your brush and your water and you run it across your tongue to get the point back. And yeah, so you clean your brush and your water and clean it on your tongue and then off you go. It sounds horrible, and it is, but yeah.

Jon: 27:02
On a probably more advanced technique, is that a way of, say, weathering the look of something?

Track 6: 27:10
Yeah, yeah.

Jon: 27:11
Instead of having a shiny cloak because of the paint, is it just that dry brushing thing that might give it a more textured appearance?

Track 6: 27:19
Good question. So let’s say you painted your cloak red, shall we say, and you wanted to make it look weathered at the bottom. what you do is is that you figure what color you’re going to paint your base that your model is going to stand on and you add a little bit of that color to the red paint yeah which will make a kind of hybrid color and that’s what you dry brush at the bottom of the bottom of the cloak and the closer it gets to the bottom of the cloak the more of the color you add so it’ll go from being slightly off brown to being a muddy brown to being very muddy brown to being dark brown and that’s how you pull it off yeah okay so and.

Jon: 27:51
What about textures yeah, How can you make it look more like a material?

Track 6: 27:58
Sure. So when you’re highlighting material, you always highlight downwards. And when you’re highlighting paper, you always highlight left to right. So when you paint your cloak, you’d put a dark red into the recesses of the folds, and you’d put a light red on the top part. When painting cloth, any sort of cloth, always turn the model so you’re painting towards yourself. So you’re doing upwards or downwards. Never go left to right.

Mark: 28:24
Okay so we’re going to move on to now the craft a bit more kind of the advanced side of things so because we know you know you’ve already spoken about entering competitions particularly with the blood bowl but you’ve had some experience with the golden demon as well but what is the golden demon and tell us your experience with it.

Track 6: 28:41
Yeah sure so golden demon is games workshop’s premier painting competition it is the one you want to win it’s the one that started in 1976 I think it was when they did their first painting competition. It is very prestigious. The problem is, is there’s only, there’s, there’s 12 categories and each category only has gold, silver, bronze. So there’s only three winners. Well, you enter your model and you get a little piece of white card of your name on it underneath your model. And then you, you hope that you get through the first culling, shall we say? So what you do is, is that the lower staff, the people that just like the look of what they like the look of, will put a green sticker on your little bit of white paper so you go back six hours later four hours later and you’re desperate to see this little green sticker and that means that you’ve the entries have been cut in half as you’ve made the first the first culling and that keeps going for four rounds all the way down to five and when you get to five those ones are the chance of winning a golden demon trophy now i’ve managed to get down to the five once once only and the model was photographed I didn’t win though, uh and and that’s what you’re kind of hoping to happen so.

Mark: 29:53
Talking about entry requirements is it just they take your money and it doesn’t matter how good you are as a painter or do they demand a certain level of paint.

Track 6: 30:01
Painting no no it’s open to everyone um let’s be honest if you want to try and win this thing you’ve got to be spectacularly good at um but yeah and you pay your ticket to go to golden demon and you enter your model and they’ll always take it off you and they’ll always put in the cabinet uh so they they claim.

Mark: 30:17
Ownership of it do they if it wins it becomes theirs.

Track 6: 30:19
No no sometimes they take photographs of it and stick it in there or they ask if they can borrow it and put it at what’s called why i’m a world in nottingham where the head office is but for the for the next few hours it’s in a cabinet and people are taking photos of it and pointing at it and stuff like that and it’s quite it’s quite exhilarating really and in in my little world of seeing these little stickers appear on your models as you slowly but surely make the the judges phases.

Mark: 30:44
Talking about those miniatures that you that you paint for those competitions well for golden demon And how long would it have taken you to paint that one that got into the final five? How long did you spend on that?

Track 6: 30:54
150 hours. It was on a 33mm model, yeah. To give you an idea, the model was an Imperial Guard, which is a guy that wears a long leather coat. The leather that I painted used 13 colours of brown just to make it dark.

Mark: 31:09
But did anything more than the first 10 hours of that really make it any better?

Track 6: 31:14
Oh, yeah, yeah. What you’ve got to do is you’ve got to make the folds and the change in colour seem seamless. So you do something called wet blending, which basically means you put a colour on so thinly that it’ll make the two shades blend into one. And then you’ve got to leave it for a little while while it dries. And then you’ve got to put it on again and again. and the problem is is that once you’ve finished a certain area if you if you get another color accidentally on it because you lose concentration you’ve got to go all the way back to the beginning, and everything has to be painted to that level so this guy had a um he had like a rosaris around his neck that had to get 15 colors uh he had a pistol you could only see the uh you can only see the grip of the pistol i had to paint that four or five different colors to make it work she was doesn’t mean so much to it that it’s so it’s so important to get it right and that’s where your time goes so barry how many.

Mark: 32:08
Hours are you going to spend on silas after listening to that 150 obviously.

Track 6: 32:12
Minimum listen listen.

Barry: 32:15
Gentlemen i’m just going to put this out there, This motherfucker ain’t working at the moment.

Stephen: 32:21
Oh, dear.

Barry: 32:22
I am time rich, let me tell you. However, I am skill and talent short. So, you know, potato patata.

Mark: 32:33
Okay.

Stephen: 32:34
Also, sorry, I was just wondering, you put that figure in, it didn’t win, but can you put it in the next year and try again?

Track 6: 32:41
Yeah, so if you don’t win a trophy, what you can do is you can take your model back, try and make the use to give you feedback. when you got to the top five they used to give you feedback they don’t anymore but you would take the figure back um and you generally get feedback from your peers so you chat to the same guys this is where this is where games has a problem with it which i’ll get to in a minute but you you take it back you can rebase it and redo it but once it’s won the trophy you can’t re-enter it ever again so once it’s won something i silver got a bronze silver gold that’s you done if it hasn’t won that you can do it and there has been people that have entered golden demon in america say with the model so there was a guy called there’s a guy that entered what’s called a lazarus it’s a space marine model dark marine model dark angel model and he didn’t get anywhere in games workshop uk but one games workshop us, yeah it’s all down to the judges of the day you know they might not like your model there but they like it somewhere else it’s very bizarre like.

Barry: 33:37
Even if you really know what you’re talking about it still strikes me as being something sort of very personal and that must include if you’re judging other people’s work.

Track 6: 33:44
Yeah yeah it’s what the judges want on the day really you know um a prime example is two years ago the the guy that won the slayer sword so this is the the ultimate prize so you get bronze silver gold and then all the gold’s got put into a final pot and one of them wins and it used to be handmade it’s not anymore but you win the what’s called the slayer sword which is the ultimate trophy and he won it with a model called a skimp which is a tiny little 23 mil model with no conversion work it was just painted to such a good level that he won and there’s been people that have taken 50 to 60 bets and made their own unique piece and massive dioramas and signature signature artwork and then they didn’t win he did you know so it’s all about on the day who wins what really you could you could enter the best thing in the world and if they’re not looking for that on that day you don’t win so.

Stephen: 34:32
There isn’t categories as such they’re just anything goes.

Track 6: 34:34
There is so it’s to do with games like your game so there’ll be like a blood bowl category a warhammer category a 40k category and stuff like that but in each of those categories there can only be three winners and that’s it.

Mark: 34:45
And you mentioned to me outside of the podcast quite often the same people do win repeatedly and this is on record right so if you want to slag any anybody off.

Track 6: 34:53
Yeah so here’s the

Track 6: 34:55
here’s the big problem with golden demon i know there i know them personally not personally i’ll speak to them there’s seven slayer sword winners within the uk might be more now and each of them enter each category once so that means in each category there’s seven models won by people that have won the slayer sword and you’ve got to compete against them so the slayer sword keeps getting won by five people and it’s been won by the same five people for the last 10 years and this is one of the problems with it what they should do is that once you’ve won the slayer sword that should be you you’ve won how how high can you go and there should be another competition running next to golden demon for the slayer sword winners only because i work a life i’ve got kids i’ve got bills i’ve got stresses these people are 150 hours to them is nothing they spend 150 hours painting, hilt of a sword the guy that won the last golden team that’s just finished stated that he spent a thousand hours putting the model together that’s.

Stephen: 35:53
Just me with blood bowl team.

Track 6: 35:54
Yeah fair.

Stephen: 35:55
So i could i could compare i.

Barry: 35:57
Could compete with that just to be clear i draw the line at a thousand hours all right you guys don’t have to worry about that.

Mark: 36:03
You sure i’ve got a chance then.

Track 6: 36:05
The guy used over 90 different pieces of models to make his own unique wizard uh and it’s beyond it’s beyond belief.

Mark: 36:11
I bet at the end of it he had his head stuck on the other way.

Track 6: 36:14
What these seven people do they talk to each other so no one enters the same model. So one enters an ogre say and none of the others will enter an ogre and then someone enters a tank and no one enters the same tank so they’re increasing their chances of winning and it can get a little bit elitist. Especially when, because when you go into Games Workshop, when you go to Warhammer World they’ve got this big plaque on the wall and it shows all the winners and like I said for the last 10 years it’s been the same blokes all the time.

Barry: 36:42
Yeah, and so your suggestion, which sounds like an eminently sensible suggestion, that once you’ve won it, you can’t win it again.

Track 6: 36:51
Yeah.

Barry: 36:51
But there’s, I’m just double checking that I’ve understood your suggestion, but then there’s an extra tournament, like a champion of champions.

Track 6: 36:57
Yeah, imagine it. Imagine, so you can win the Slayer Sword, which is an actual sword, and if you’ve won it, you can enter into Archaon Shield. So you get to win a shield that goes with the sword.

Barry: 37:05
To go with the sword.

Track 6: 37:06
Yeah, or you get your name printed on it, or something like that, just some super elite competition. could you imagine these people it’d be like it’d be like the champions league it’ll be they’ll be sweat.

Stephen: 37:14
Of sweats wouldn’t it be.

Mark: 37:15
Also what might happen is that if you put them all into the same competition they might end up spending like 10 000 hours on each figure and and that’s in them gone isn’t it really the first.

Stephen: 37:25
Death of painting.

Mark: 37:26
Just just seeing them like a skeleton.

Track 6: 37:29
Of a paint brush.

Jon: 37:29
The um raffle tickets instead of names, on the models so that way people won’t go oh that that one’s really good one i know that guy.

Track 6: 37:41
No no when i said but when i said name the name is on it but it’s on the underside of it but obviously you know your model yeah technically it’s a blind painting competition but i can pick i could pick andy wardle’s models out in a in a hundred with it with a second that’s.

Barry: 37:56
Exactly what i was just about to ask if this is you if this is your field of expertise if you follow these guys closely can you see their work without their name on it that.

Track 6: 38:06
Yeah instantly yeah yeah.

Barry: 38:08
Okay so it being blind is.

Track 6: 38:10
It’s not really blind yeah.

Barry: 38:12
Yeah that that leaves a bit of a funny taste in my mouth.

Track 6: 38:15
Yeah john.

Jon: 38:16
I just want to ask you how.

Mark: 38:17
Many hours are you going to put into painting fact hunt.

Jon: 38:21
Um i have real problems with art i i’m never going to be happy with it so there’s questions how can you am I better off getting like half a dozen of the same model.

Track 6: 38:35
Until I.

Jon: 38:36
Get one that doesn’t actually look like I’ve vomited it.

Track 6: 38:39
Up no chance or can.

Jon: 38:41
You actually clean the damn thing.

Track 6: 38:43
You can there are chemicals you can use to take paint off metal models it’s quite easy Terps is just the easiest one but don’t do it John do your model to the level you’re happy with and be happy with it.

Jon: 38:53
That’s not how I work.

Barry: 38:55
But this is one of the things about hobbies isn’t it it’s like, i really meant what i said earlier on when you were like you know be proud of your work i really like that regardless of where you just be proud of your work.

Mark: 39:07
Uh so you’ve already mentioned mark about the community and how it becomes like at that level very cliquey and almost like a closed shop how do you find the community in general is um.

Track 6: 39:18
I’ve never had one person i’ve gone to talk up talk to and say oh can you tell me what color you use there or online when we’re chatting about it or you on on their whatsapp group or their instagrams and just ask them and most people are generally quite willing to tell you the annoying thing is is when they go oh it was easy i use these 17 colors to make this color and you’re like like i haven’t got them but generally most of them are really really helpful yeah yeah i’ve never i’ve never had one time if you reach out and.

Mark: 39:41
Ask for advice.

Track 6: 39:41
Yeah yeah you might feel intimidated to do it but i mean there’s always a rare one that’s a bit of a knob but the for the most it sounds egotistical but we want to kind of spread the knowledge the way i paint eyes as a prime example is mostly different to someone else’s and therefore I want to teach them how to do it. So it’s just passing on the knowledge, really. But yeah, most of them are willing to talk to you.

Barry: 40:02
Hand on heart, I just wanted to discuss what the prize is going to be for the miniature painting competitions.

Stephen: 40:07
A sword? How about a little plastic sword or something?

Track 6: 40:10
I tell you what, I will paint up a Slayer sword, a little plastic sword.

Barry: 40:14
You’re a bunch of grown-up kids, aren’t we?

Mark: 40:17
Got to have something to aim for.

Stephen: 40:18
We’ll think of an aim for it, yeah.

Mark: 40:20
But that means you’re judging this, Mark. Are you going to be the judge? I suppose that does make a lot of sense. so to round it up i’ve got a couple more questions to you mark the one of the last ones is what’s what are you painting right now.

Track 6: 40:30
Sure so at the moment i’m going to be painting my golden demon entry for me and the missus are going to milwaukee in america in march the 16th to 15th and i’m painting you’d know what this is mark i’m painting a warhammer fantasy battle knight’s panther.

Mark: 40:47
Oh, very nice. But have you not started on it yet? There’s nothing you can…

Track 6: 40:50
No, I’m just getting it together now. There was a famous piece of artwork by John Blanche a few years ago, I wouldn’t say a few years back in the 1990s, of a Knight’s Panther rearing on a horse on a kind of cliff edge. And I’m going to do that.

Mark: 41:03
Oh, I know it. I know that art. Yeah. It was on a White Wolf magazine cover as well, wasn’t it? That’s it.

Track 6: 41:08
That is. Yeah, I’m going to be copying that. Yeah. So I bought the model. I’ve got that. I’m getting the base started. I’m going to give myself between now and March to paint it. so that’s much effort I’m going to be putting into it. The barding of the horse, I’m going to paint normal metallic colours, but I’m going to try and paint in the metalwork some fleur-de-lis. So when you look at it close, the metalwork shows are kind of artwork in the metalwork.

Mark: 41:31
What competition is it you’re going there for?

Track 6: 41:33
So it’s the American Adepticon’s Golden Demon. I’m entering Adepticon in America.

Mark: 41:38
They just might like your style better than they’ve done over it. You might be able to get to the finals.

Track 6: 41:43
Yeah, and I want to give Golden Demon one more goes. they do take a lot of time to do and i’ve always liked that knight’s panther thing and since playing our role play game it’s got me back into the idea of knights and stuff and i’m i’ve got i’ve got everything ready i’m just i’m gonna start putting the model together and putting the model together is going to take me 50 hours yeah get.

Stephen: 42:02
The head around the right way.

Track 6: 42:02
Yeah head around the right mold lines kind of a mold line one mold line i lost any mold line on it anywhere and that’s me out of the competition right.

Mark: 42:11
But you’d be able to see it there wouldn’t you so you wouldn’t stop until that gone.

Track 6: 42:14
Yeah correct yeah yeah and i’m gonna have to file it down properly and make sure it all fits and fill in the gaps and all that sort of stuff did.

Stephen: 42:20
Note down i was gonna ask about does size matter when it comes to the to the figure.

Track 6: 42:24
Well well now there you go so the skink that won the golden demon sword three years ago sorry was is 22 millimeters height it’s tiny paradoxically the one that won it the next time was a giant which is about nine inches tall so no is the honest answer it just has to be done, well. See, a lot of people do this while going around. A lot of people buy these models, these character models, and they say, I’ll paint it later when I get better. Don’t do that. Find the model you like painting and paint it, and you’ll get better for the next model you like. Never fall into the trap of, I’m only going to paint these basic figures until I get good. None of that. Find the model you like and just paint it, and then you’ll get better for the next one. Whenever you’re passionate about something, you’re willing to put the effort in, and I’m looking forward to doing this model and i’ll take some photos of it and and you can you can see it as i go along i would.

Mark: 43:17
Like to put some photos up on, our discord channel or maybe our social channels of some of you who work particularly the one that you said got to the last five and the golden thing it’s pretty great to see that one you got some professional photos of that at the time yeah yeah yeah and um dear of this as well which you know

Mark: 43:33
by the time this podcast goes live there might be there might be a stage of that that you might be able to show yeah yeah so i wanted to round it off by asking you what what is your golden rule.

Track 6: 43:41
Yeah golden rule is to is to when you start to paint um get yourself in the in the zone as such so uh for me i listen to podcasts so i put a podcast on and then off i go and distractions are the killer so let’s say you’re painting whatever your cloak back to the cloak idea and you’ve got constant distractions you’ll never get it right so get yourself some free time to sit down and do it and put as much effort in as you can in the time frame you’ve got and if the time frame you’ve got is two hours do it in two hours these are things that we’re really proud of so give yourself the opportunity to do it with no distractions i’ll say would be my golden rule.

Mark: 44:15
Okay so that’s it for this episode huge thanks to little mark for uh joining us today and i don’t think this will be the last time you hear from him and and remember as mark says you don’t need to be a master painter to enjoy miniatures uh but just get started and hopefully this episode can has given you some sense of a head start and you can appreciate what goes into this side of the hobby yeah so that’s it guys well done i mean we don’t have to hang up straight away but that’s the end of the podcast alright.

Barry: 44:44
Can we can we use our usual language now.

Mark: 44:48
John.

Track 6: 44:48
Are you going to run again now he is a dedicated man pleasure.