Pop Culture, Religion & the Redemption of D&D

Grab your dice and light a candle for the misunderstood bards of the past.

In this episode, Mark, Jon, Stephen, and Barry tackle the big one: The Redemption of D&D. We look back at the 80s when the media linked our hobby to the occult and suicide, and compare it to the modern era of celebrity DMs and Wembley Arena sell-outs.

It gets a bit spicy as the blokes discuss how modern politics and “woke” culture are rubbing up against the hobby, and why the simple rule of “Don’t be a twat” is the only thing that really matters at the table.

FAQs

1. Is Dungeons & Dragons actually linked to the occult or devil worship? Look, unless you count Jon’s collection of heavy metal vinyl, the answer is a flat no. Back in the 80s, folks got their knickers in a twist because the books had pictures of demons and devils (which were there to be fought, mind you). It was all a bit of a media circus. These days, even the church realizes it’s just a bunch of mates telling a story over some snacks.

2. I’m quite religious; will I feel uncomfortable at the table? Not if we’re doing our jobs right. The “Social Contract” at our club is simple: leave your real-world politics and preaching at the door. We’ve had Christians, Pagans, and everything in between sitting together for years. We’re there to play a game, not debate theology—unless it’s about whether your Cleric’s god is going to grant you that extra healing spell.

3. Do I need to be a “nerd” or a “geek” to play? We lived through the years when being a “nerd” was a social death sentence, so we’ve got the thick skin to prove it. But honestly? The “nerd” label is dead. We’ve got builders, teachers, ex-military, and office workers at the club. If you like stories, games, and a laugh, you’re one of us.

4. Why was the “Satanic Panic” such a big deal in the 80s? It was a perfect storm of misunderstood hobbyists and sensationalist tabloids. People are often scared of things they don’t understand, and a group of teenagers speaking in “tongues” (well, Draconic) in a basement was enough to trigger a moral panic. We talk about this in the episode—it’s a fascinating bit of history that actually made the game more “forbidden” and cool for some of us.

5. Is the hobby more “woke” now than it used to be? The hobby has changed because the world has changed. Some people love the new inclusive direction; others miss the “grit” of the old days. As we discuss in the podcast, D&D is a “clean slate.” You can make it whatever you want at your table. Our rule is: as long as everyone is having fun and being respectful, the rest is just noise.

6. I’ve seen D&D on Stranger Things—is it really like that? It’s a bit less life-and-death (thankfully no real Demogorgons yet), but the spirit is spot on. It’s about that bond you form with your mates when you’re facing a challenge together. That “us against the world” feeling is exactly why we’re still playing 40 years later.

7. What if I don’t like Dungeons & Dragons? Are there other options? Loads! D&D is the big dog in the room, but we talk about systems like Dragon Warriors or Call of Cthulhu too. If high fantasy isn’t your bag, you can do sci-fi, horror, or historical games. The “Redemption” of the hobby has opened the door for hundreds of different systems.

8. How do I join a game without looking like a tit? Step one: Show up. Step two: Don’t be a twat. It’s that easy. Most players are desperate to welcome new blood into the hobby. Just be honest that you’re new, bring a set of dice (or borrow some), and be ready to collaborate. We don’t judge you on your character’s voice; we judge you on whether you brought the biscuits.

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Episode Transcript

Mark:
[0:00] Welcome to RPG Blokes. In this episode, we’re taking a look back at one of the

Mark:
[0:05] strangest chapters in gaming history. When Dungeons & Dragons wasn’t cool, it was condemned. Back in the 80s, parents panicked. The tabloids warned of devil worship and rolling dice in your mate’s kitchen could get you labelled as a danger to society. Fast forward 40 years, and the same game that sparked moral outrage is now a global pastime. Streamed, merchandised, and played by celebrities. From Satanic Panic to Geek Cheek, this is the story of how D&D went from the shadows into the spotlight. So grab your dice, light a candle for the misunderstood bards of the past, and join us as we explore how the world’s most controversial hobby rolled for redemption and scored a natural 20. Music, Introducing the RPG blokes. John, a known Satanist.

Stephen:
[1:08] Sorry, I thought you was.

Jon:
[1:10] Pagan. Very different.

Barry:
[1:11] He prefers senior Satanists.

Mark:
[1:14] And particularly active throughout the 80s. As far as John is concerned, the devil’s work was done.

Jon:
[1:22] No. You got to believe in that, Invisible Sky Daddy, for the other thing. So, no.

Mark:
[1:30] Stephen, the baby amongst us. having begun role-playing at the tender age of one month. Initially meant to be a sacrifice for John, Stephen was allowed to grow into the fully-fledged cultist you see today.

Stephen:
[1:42] Yes, I have 666 tattoo at the back of my head.

Jon:
[1:46] I thought your price had gone up.

Stephen:
[1:48] Well, it’s the 80s price, yeah.

Mark:
[1:50] Barry didn’t play when he was young, and so didn’t have to deal with the stigma, the inability to meet girls, and the constant threat of his mum finding his dirty stash of white dwarf magazines underneath his bed.

Barry:
[2:00] True.

Mark:
[2:02] Okay. So we’re going to break this into two parts. First, we’re going to talk about the satanic panic era. Of course, we’re all Brits, and we know this was a bit more extreme in other countries around the world, particularly the USA. So for our American listeners, I’m sorry, we’re not going to be able to do this justice, but it is something we did experience over here and we have an opinion on. So we’ll talk as best we can about that. And then, of course, then the redemption of the hobby as well, and say from the early 2000s to the present day, and how it’s changed. So when we were young, I remember… we played in our local youth centre attached to our school. And the teacher was very much under pressure to bring it to our attention just how subvertent this hobby could be. And so people would approach him with pamphlets, Christians mainly, that would do that. And he felt obliged to show us these things. And we had a good collective laugh at him.

Stephen:
[2:56] Yeah, I say he was laughing his red mouth.

Barry:
[2:58] Sorry, can I just get a clarification on that? Because I’m not sure I understood it properly. A teacher at your school was handed anti-D&D property propaganda pamphlets by religious parents from the school.

Mark:
[3:11] Yeah. I think parents and people, yeah, most of the local community.

Stephen:
[3:14] Yeah. I remember that letter. It was a strongly worded letter. I think it was about stock playing the game pretty much. I think it wasn’t, it wasn’t a suggestion, was it? I think it was quite, quite aggressive.

Mark:
[3:24] And we all sat there listening and said, is he going to close the club?

Stephen:
[3:29] We just knew everything they said just wasn’t fact at the time. We just knew it. They were obviously not played the game. They were just going on what potentially was come across from America. And the panic was happening over there. And they were just looking at, well, I suppose if you look at some of the books back in that day, they were a little bit satanic looking. Like the DM’s Guide had a big demon on the front of it.

Mark:
[3:48] Didn’t they? But also the monster manuals and the fiendfolios and those kind of supplements, they contained real devils and demons.

Barry:
[3:54] I mean, when you say real devils and demons, or named ones from this world’s mythology.

Stephen:
[4:02] Yeah, it was this world’s mythology they were tapping into, which I think they backed away from that.

Jon:
[4:05] They also missed the point that, But invariably, those things were there as enemies to be defeated. So if anything.

Barry:
[4:12] It’s also a funny thing, isn’t it? So people talk about, you know, the strength of their faith. And actually, people’s faith can be incredibly important to them. And I’d defend anyone’s right to have that. But the idea that your way of life is under threat by a game, like you can’t, like your God might not be strong enough, babes.

Mark:
[4:31] So we listened to that. There was no self-reflection here at all, was there? we just looked at it and laughed because we realized that we’re the least likely people in society to have been drawn to, to these things.

Stephen:
[4:41] We knew the dangers of summoning demons, don’t we? So we weren’t going to do it. So, because potentially it could have downsides.

Barry:
[4:46] I have no problem with summoning the occasional demon, as long as we know how many hit points they’ve got.

Mark:
[4:54] And you did know how many hit points, balesie, bub ad. But then I suppose back in the eighties as well, wasn’t witchcraft illegal? I think it was legalized in seventies, actually.

Stephen:
[5:03] Oh, was it?

Mark:
[5:04] Witchcraft was an illegal act until fairly recently.

Jon:
[5:08] Yeah, Gardnerian was the sort of big unifier for that and got recognised as a faith.

Mark:
[5:16] But I could see from an outsider’s point of view, you might look at us playing these games and may think that it does tie over into witchcraft. You played with witches, John.

Jon:
[5:26] There’s a big difference between witches, as Christians portray them, and witches as in nature worshipping pagans, but you can’t tell God’s court.

Mark:
[5:37] You never sacrificed anything.

Jon:
[5:39] No, only time.

Mark:
[5:41] And many munches were sacrificed in here.

Stephen:
[5:44] Just a waste line.

Barry:
[5:45] Do we think this is different now as well? Because I kind of feel like more so in this country. And it’s interesting that you talked about the difference in America, because actually the difference between Britain and America at the moment is quite pronounced as well. But do you feel like, I feel like religion, like particularly Christianity, like people still banging about how we’re a Christian country. And quite often I’m like, well, how are we? I don’t feel like it has the same.

Jon:
[6:07] But you give them the slightest chance and it would be.

Stephen:
[6:10] Yeah, but it wouldn’t have to just be Christianity, would it?

Mark:
[6:12] One religion or another, but we might be straying here.

Stephen:
[6:15] Yeah. Because nowadays it might be even worse with other religions. They might take this even more seriously.

Mark:
[6:20] I think they will. Yeah. At least Christianity had grown up and got over it. Yeah, some of them.

Barry:
[6:24] You can’t say that because they’re not. I am not aware of anyone campaigning still from any religious perspective.

Stephen:
[6:31] D&D has changed quite significantly. They backed off on a lot of this stuff that caused the satanic panic.

Barry:
[6:36] Oh, okay. Was it more?

Stephen:
[6:38] Yeah, it was. I mean, it was more iconography and stuff that you would say, all right, with just superficially looking at it, you would say, okay, that looks like death of worship to me. And it did. And it would lend into that, the artwork. It all led into it. But nowadays, you just, yeah, nothing like it. It’s all fluffy kind of pink rainbows, isn’t it, when you look at D&D artwork. So no one’s going to take offence to that.

Barry:
[6:54] I suppose it is much more kind of…

Jon:
[6:56] Yeah, they changed the names, didn’t they? Yeah, they changed everything. You’re not allowed to call them devils and demons.

Stephen:
[7:00] They’re like Tenaris or Batsus.

Mark:
[7:02] There are other systems that would still cause that outrage. Well, essentially, but they’re so niche now that D&D just kind of overshadows everything else.

Barry:
[7:08] I mean, that’s the thing with something like this. It will be, you know, you can be a victim of your own success in that regard, can’t you? You know, being at the top means you’re the one that people are going to try and knock off. Yeah, I get that.

Mark:
[7:17] I get that.

Jon:
[7:17] I mean, some of the fantasy stuff, Dragon Warriors, one of our favourites, is… Okay, it’s got the fantasy element quite strongly, but it is still based on… our world history, slightly ignoring timelines. You’ve got the Crusades, you’ve got the so-called true faith, and you’re playing people that return from the Crusades and fighting against evil sorcerers and stuff like that. So, I mean, it’s a rich vein to mine. You don’t have to go entirely fantastical like a different world, but it’s probably safer.

Mark:
[7:54] So yeah, so this whole media frenzy was sensationalist headlines that we had in this country too, were linking D&D to occultism, suicide and real life evil. We just didn’t get, but fine, this is what you think, it’s not true, so I’m not going to feel like I had to defend myself. But there was a certain amount of, I don’t know, kudos or we quite enjoyed some of that, didn’t we? Let’s be honest. The idea that we were doing something forbidden that other people didn’t understand, but yet we weren’t doing anything wrong.

Jon:
[8:21] Stranger things, isn’t it? I was going to say it’s a weirdly wholesome rebellion.

Barry:
[8:25] Isn’t it?

Mark:
[8:25] Yeah, it is. Yeah, because you’ve got no worries about it. You know that you’re not going to be doing the things they’re telling you it could lead to.

Stephen:
[8:32] Yeah, I don’t know if anyone really did come out of it in a cult. I wouldn’t know. But there was, obviously, the media was a bit different back in the day. Because there were TV programs, weren’t there? where it was negatively portrayed when one kid shit.

Jon:
[8:42] Tom Hanks movie.

Mark:
[8:44] Mothers and Monsters it.

Barry:
[8:45] Was in an episode of Luther as well I don’t know if anyone remembers that there was an episode there was an episode on Luther with the die rolling and they were D&D die sets, to see who they murdered and stuff like that and writing down like it was a campaign but that wasn’t that long ago so there was still a negative portrayal well I don’t think that was a negative portrayal of the game I think it was a it was a portrayal of someone who had mental health issues did.

Stephen:
[9:07] They mention the game in that I don’t know Well.

Mark:
[9:10] There were D20s and stuff. It weren’t just standardized. And he was talking about what his character would do and his random nature of it. But that Mazes of Monsters film was actually based on a real-life event in America, James Dallas Egbert. He was a student at the university there, Michigan. And he lost his mind, didn’t he? He went down into the tunnels and the subterranean part of the university and got himself lost. And people didn’t know much about him because he was a loner, but they all knew he played D&D. The whole thing just got sensationalized, and they got tied into Dungeons & Dragons. And that was really a real moment, I think, in America where this thing took hold. We had our own Mazes of Monsters incident, didn’t we? I don’t know whether people would still recognize it as such,

Mark:
[9:51] but the Hungerford Massacre, he went postal, didn’t he, and killed 16 people in his community. But they said he was playing play-by-mail games. And the play-by-mail games… was the theory that he was directed to do this within the context of the game and took it out of context and then did it in real life. It never got included in the trial and investigations drew a dead end with that as being one of his motives. But there were calls for the games to be banned, played by male games were looked at and scrutinized by society. And again, it’s just another negative feedback loop in it with D&D, everything. You know, you watch D&D on television, it was always the sad bastard that was playing D&D.

Barry:
[10:28] Yeah, well, and this is it either. Either the people doing it are presented as losers, or it’s blamed for a violent act of a loser.

Stephen:
[10:39] So it would be interesting to know if the D&D came out now, in its form back in the 80s, what… What consternation would it if it didn’t exist until now?

Mark:
[10:47] Yeah, because it has evolved. It has adapted. It has evolved because of those criticisms. It just has because the game’s improved a bit.

Barry:
[10:53] It’s a really valid question, what would happen if D&D were released today? But then you have to look at what other games, hobbies, movies, et cetera. And I do think we kind of live in a time now where people are much less likely to knee-jerk react.

Jon:
[11:09] Particularly from a spiritual perspective.

Stephen:
[11:12] Yeah, maybe.

Mark:
[11:13] I think if we’re going to talk about religion, we have to also say that Christianity has evolved and is far more relaxed and less likely to take umbrage at this kind of stuff. There is another religion on the block that is far more likely to try and tell you how to think.

Barry:
[11:29] You should Google the Westboro Baptist Church before you start making statements like that. Listen, I haven’t heard a single negative thing said about our hobby from a religious perspective in the entire time that I have been playing our hobby.

Stephen:
[11:45] I don’t know what the demographic of people actually play the hobby. They might just sort of, if you’ve got parents that are quite religious, they might just say, you’re not playing it, and they don’t play it. They just don’t make a deal of it. We just don’t know. We don’t know what the demographic is of different religions playing role-playing games. They might just not do it. You just don’t know.

Mark:
[12:00] I would say that’s more likely, yeah.

Jon:
[12:01] So for what it’s worth, anyone that thinks it is, feel free to turn up. I’ll quite happily have you in a game. And I will not be a twat about it if you’re not. Absolutely.

Mark:
[12:11] That’s what we want. We want to bridge these gaps into different cultures and religions that we’re not able to otherwise… communicate properly with and this is a brilliant brilliant hobby to come along and leave all of that behind and just focus on a game isn’t it we’d we’d love to have muslims play the game right let’s be honest what we’re talking about here or any religion but um certainly christianity has certainly relaxed its stance on yeah some of them in our country anyway i mean you’re talking about baptist church in america actually muslim.

Barry:
[12:42] Dmd players often adapt the game to align with islamic principles by focusing on storytelling over polysthetic law, frequent replacing details of beings or spirits and removing alcohol centric scenes. Many enjoy the hobby as a creative outlet, treating it as imaginative acting rather than a violation of faith.

Jon:
[13:01] That’s healthy.

Stephen:
[13:03] But how many of them do it?

Jon:
[13:04] Many.

Mark:
[13:07] Many is more than two.

Jon:
[13:09] If someone’s gone to the trouble of explaining how they adapt it.

Barry:
[13:14] Then I’m going to assume that people have played it.

Stephen:
[13:15] Of course they’ve played it. I just don’t know with the whole entire lot how many really spiritually intense people do play role-playing games. I don’t know.

Mark:
[13:23] So the intense spirituality, like I say, is more likely to lead to criticism of this kind of thing.

Stephen:
[13:29] It would have done certainly in the 80s, hundred percent it would have done.

Barry:
[13:32] It’s proof it would have done well it did and it’s a difficult thing isn’t it to say what would happen now because you’re right as well it’s like society has changed massively since then I mean Christianity is incredibly more relaxed and generally speaking and I know like I mentioned the Westboro Baptist Church but those are the extreme extremes, yeah I think we are talking about.

Stephen:
[13:50] Extremes even in the 80s it would have been more extreme this.

Barry:
[13:54] Is it for me as well it’s like I will defend anyone’s right to believe in any related religion that they want and to have any faith that they want, but I don’t expect them to be telling me…

Mark:
[14:05] How to live your life by that. Yeah, absolutely. That’s where I’m at with religion too.

Jon:
[14:09] There’s freedom of religion, also freedom from religion. Freedom of religion, absolutely.

Barry:
[14:13] Absolutely.

Mark:
[14:14] For us growing up as Christians in Christian school and having that baggage with us as we’ve grown up, I’m a Christian, I don’t mind calling myself that. But it was Life O’Brien that came along and it’s like, thanks, fuck, we can laugh about all this now. You know what I mean?

Jon:
[14:28] That trouble, didn’t I?

Barry:
[14:30] Look at the outrage that that causes them.

Mark:
[14:31] Well, it is at the time, but it didn’t…

Barry:
[14:33] It was massive.

Mark:
[14:34] Nobody got their heads cut off, though, did they? You can only imagine.

Jon:
[14:37] So the whole backlash on this, mostly religion and media, the media had a new thing to jump on. Before that, it was comic books. And people’s legal defense for a little while were blame it on reading this comic book.

Barry:
[14:55] Sometimes I feel like there are people who don’t feel like they’re complete unless they’re outraged about something.

Mark:
[14:59] That doesn’t explain the entire woke ideology.

Barry:
[15:02] Well, no, I don’t spend my life. I know, but you describe me as woke all the time and I’m not outraged at anything.

Jon:
[15:11] Really.

Barry:
[15:12] Listen, I’ve been drinking in pubs and working man’s clubs in southeast London for 40 years as a woke person. And yeah, I hear stuff I don’t like, but I still manage to function in those…

Mark:
[15:25] That’s because you’re a grown-up.

Jon:
[15:26] And not a twat.

Barry:
[15:28] Hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on now. Listen, I’ve worked hard to get my reputation as a twat and I won’t have you taking it away from me willy-nilly.

Jon:
[15:36] Yeah. Papertizer.

Mark:
[15:39] So there’s plenty of room for D&D to still fulfil all these things. That’s what we’re suggesting.

Stephen:
[15:44] I was going to move it to somewhere else, slightly from the religions. and what was worse than the religious people ever going to go at you in the 80s was being called a nerd planet we.

Mark:
[15:51] Were mocked socially awkward friendless weirdos it was difficult to pick up girlfriends yeah.

Stephen:
[15:57] Difficult a girlfriend should we say meet girls they did yeah no girls played well we went to all boys school and that’s where our club was so i guess that was a but there were no girls playing no not really it was very boy centric copy wasn’t it yeah and.

Barry:
[16:13] I mean that’s one of the things that’s like improved and improved the experience is having like a a a more realistic mix of.

Stephen:
[16:20] I think we would have liked it at the time, but it just wasn’t happening.

Barry:
[16:25] We weren’t against it, Barry. Fair enough. But sometimes with these hobbies, they are kind of mal-dominated for a reason. Well, listen, I need you guys to know this. I move in circles where my love for the game is still seen as nerdy and geeky. I get the piss taken out of me for that. It is not street call. and no matter how much you talk to them about you know like stranger things and there are people in my friend circles that I haven’t told that, I’m LARPing.

Jon:
[17:02] Well, that’s fair.

Barry:
[17:03] Because I just can’t.

Stephen:
[17:05] That’s a step-toe satanic.

Barry:
[17:06] I can’t be asked with the billion loaded questions that all end up with me looking like a tit. And it’s one of the reasons that so few photos of all of us there exist. Let’s be honest. We’ve never taken a group photo of us all LARPing because it will be leaked.

Mark:
[17:22] It would be. What happens in the caves stays in the caves, that’s for sure. There’s no way a photo of me is coming out. But the one thing I can say is that we all lived through this period where we were demonized, literally, for playing the game. And it didn’t put us off. We were stigmatized being geeks and losers. We still carried on playing, right? So it’s a bloody good hobby. That’s a sign, isn’t it? The people that are playing just thought, I’m going to ignore all of that. I’m going to take all of that stigma. I’m going to live with it because I want to do this game. And so eventually the game wins through, doesn’t it? The power of the game, the brilliance of the concept of role-playing games.

Stephen:
[17:57] Well, you’re playing with other people like-minded, aren’t you? So you kind of stick with those people like we have done over the years. We’ve played together. People come into play that would take the piss out of you at the table. I guess we’ve never really had someone come in, give it a go and say, oh, this is shit. But everyone seems to know what they’re getting into.

Jon:
[18:11] I mean, in fairness… probably wouldn’t even have met if not for the game and.

Mark:
[18:15] We’ve got nothing.

Jon:
[18:16] No other sort of social.

Mark:
[18:18] Thing going on.

Barry:
[18:19] That’s the power of a lot of hobbies.

Mark:
[18:21] This one in particular i think but.

Barry:
[18:23] This one in particular because it literally does involve sitting around.

Mark:
[18:25] People to get like on a regular basis on a regular basis well.

Jon:
[18:29] That’s the dream.

Mark:
[18:30] Oh says a man who plays six times a week so what do you think is the main thing that has caused this redemption or catalyst the catalyst should you say has it been dnd fifth edition yeah.

Stephen:
[18:41] I think you can pinpoint it to that it’s got everyone involving it’s like it’s second coming wasn’t it similar to the 80s but everything that they’ve learned along the way they put into that edition that drew everyone in and they got celebrity endorsements and everything else they got it right this time i think with the marketing of dnd fifth edition.

Mark:
[18:58] They’ve taken away a lot of those things that would have otherwise been unpalatable and.

Stephen:
[19:03] They presented it as quite a wholesome game that everyone can play.

Mark:
[19:06] It is that one system that most people that come into our community want to play yeah and we accommodate that the dnd they just come in fully fledged don’t they like john you you just quickly mentioned the internet that that’s been a big part of the revolution if.

Jon:
[19:19] The internet has crashed during covid i i mean in general not just our hobby but everything that that was like the the main thing that kept society running which is a scary thing.

Mark:
[19:31] Yeah the.

Barry:
[19:32] Main thing that kept society running John was essential workers like you and I well then the internet okay.

Mark:
[19:39] And then Dungeons and Dragons I.

Barry:
[19:41] Suppose we should talk about the movie, movies you know i’m only talking i’m only talking about the last one it’s funny because i saw a guy talking about the other day um it is a crying shame that that’s not getting a sequel that should have been the start they.

Mark:
[19:54] They said that.

Barry:
[19:55] As far as i’m aware it’s not getting a sequel so it cost 200 no it cost 150 million to make and it took 200 million which in big studio is is next to nothing and it was a real shame because i thought it was really really good and i think I think one of the reasons it did badly was because there were still a lot of people that saw the title and thought, that’s probably not for me.

Mark:
[20:19] It’s strange. Do you know what I mean? Because you look at a lot of the films that are being made these days, they repurpose all of the old IP and put this progressive shit into it and change them. D&D is literally there for them. It has a progressive audience. Nobody would object if those things were put into it. It’s almost like a clean slate. it’s attracting a lot of people like us and a lot of new progressive minds too. And they’re not going to put money into it and make it. I don’t get it.

Jon:
[20:47] But if they use D&D, Wizards of the Coast do dig their heels in on certain things.

Mark:
[20:53] You think it’s a lock-up of IP?

Jon:
[20:54] Ready player one.

Mark:
[20:56] But these things could be negotiated. I’m not saying this D&D is literally the slate they need to bring in all of those things. They’ve practically destroyed different IPs with and warped them into something they’re no longer very, very palatable or enjoyable to watch. D&D, it would all work in.

Barry:
[21:14] Which ones?

Mark:
[21:15] Doctor Who, Star Wars.

Barry:
[21:17] Doctor Who’s always been relatively woke. Star Trek? How has Star Trek been ruined by woke? The Federation is the wokest organisation on the planet and always has been.

Stephen:
[21:27] You’d think, wouldn’t you? How could you make that more work?

Barry:
[21:30] I don’t know very little about Star Trek. It’s not one of my things. But I did recently watch Starfleet Academy. I quite enjoyed it. I’m a bit of a Gina Yashiri fan. I’ve always liked her work.

Mark:
[21:41] That is literally the first person I’ve ever heard say that. Well, all I can say, people used to watch it back then and they don’t anymore. So what I’m talking about anyway in this regard is the fact that they’ve destroyed these franchises by bringing in things that people are not interested in having as part of what they’re watching.

Jon:
[21:57] D&D film.

Mark:
[21:58] D&D should be literally the place where this happens.

Stephen:
[22:00] I don’t think it’s not going to get a sequel because people didn’t like it. It just probably didn’t earn enough money. And that’s what the bottom line is.

Barry:
[22:06] It’s exactly what it is. And it’s funny because the studio did a genuinely, genuinely good job with it.

Mark:
[22:11] Let’s be honest. The latest Star Trek, Star Wars Doctor Who are losing hundreds of millions of pounds. There’s potential to grow that. I think it’s a real shame. It’s sad to hear that they’re not continuing with it because we all enjoyed it.

Barry:
[22:24] Just for the record, when you say the new Star Wars movies are losing money, hand over fist, The Rise of Skywalker made a billion dollars.

Mark:
[22:30] You should have your phone taken away. Your AI Google search is confusing our podcast.

Barry:
[22:34] People should be fact-checked. The Rise of Skywalker made a billion dollars. Can you explain to me how that’s not successful?

Mark:
[22:39] We’re not talking about those films. We’re talking about the latest stuff that they’ve released over the last four or five years. They’re cancelling series, aren’t they, because they’re losing money.

Barry:
[22:47] Not every piece of output is going to be for every single fan, especially if these wish to continue to endure, they have to attract new fans. And I’m not necessarily saying they’re being successful at that. And I’ve gone on record as saying that I don’t like it when they just, like, let’s say, for example, they just change the gender or race of a character and say that counts as representation. I think that’s really lazy. Yeah. If the storytelling’s all right.

Mark:
[23:13] It kind of doesn’t matter what the agenda is. Those things don’t worry me. What worries me is the directors and the people that are put in charge of these franchises are literally going on record and saying, I am going to use this as a vehicle to educate you.

Barry:
[23:25] Who said that?

Mark:
[23:26] A lot of these directors have gone on record to say that.

Barry:
[23:28] Okay, so on record. So you’ll be able to show me the record?

Mark:
[23:30] Yes.

Barry:
[23:31] Okay, cool. Work on it.

Stephen:
[23:32] The acolyte, wasn’t it? She was an activist.

Barry:
[23:35] Wasn’t she? And this is another thing as well. I enjoyed it. The concept was brilliant. I thought they were some of the best combat scenes I’ve ever seen in a Star Wars movie.

Mark:
[23:44] So yeah, we enjoy playing politics within the game, but it shouldn’t be part of the game. And I guess it shouldn’t be part of our podcast either. And when I edit this podcast down, I’m not quite sure whether to go with that entire conversation or not, because it is very much about what our culture and the friction within our societies are very much about at the moment. And it is beginning to impinge upon our hobby, which we’ve never liked it to do. We want to ring fence that from the experience we’re having at the table, which is why we want other people to feel that they’re welcome to play, no matter what their view on life is or what they believe. You know, they just come along and just play at the table because we’re not judging you on that shit. We’re getting on with our game.

Barry:
[24:21] And I love it for that. I absolutely love it for that.

Stephen:
[24:24] This goes to show…

Jon:
[24:25] The social contract, don’t be a twat.

Barry:
[24:27] Don’t be a twat at the table.

Stephen:
[24:29] It also proves there’s the parallelisation. It’s not real. It’s just saying it’s been constructed. Nobody cares. So that pretty much sums it all up.

Mark:
[24:36] I like that.

Barry:
[24:36] I like that.

Mark:
[24:37] Could you play D&D with Hitler?

Stephen:
[24:38] Yeah, fuck it.

Barry:
[24:40] I mean, I think that might be where I draw the line.

Mark:
[24:43] Oh, Adolf’s just walked into the room. Adolf, come and sit down. He comes and plays a game. We don’t talk politics.

Stephen:
[24:48] He’s a bird, Adolf.

Mark:
[24:49] We don’t talk about anything other than the game. And he’s fucking excellent at it, right?

Jon:
[24:53] He knows how to play. Sophie, no. Young artist corporal from the First World War.

Mark:
[24:59] You are literally playing D&D with Hitler. You wouldn’t know it’s Hitler.

Barry:
[25:03] What? I don’t recognise Hitler.

Mark:
[25:05] Okay.

Jon:
[25:06] You mean the next Hitler?

Mark:
[25:07] The next Hitler. that nobody’s heard of. Imagine if someone said who you were playing with last night and you’d start describing Hitler to them.

Barry:
[25:14] You know, little guy, kind of funny moustache, military uniform, which I thought was weird.

Mark:
[25:20] The social contract’s so important.

Barry:
[25:22] It works out.

Jon:
[25:23] It’s a social game.

Mark:
[25:25] It doesn’t function unless you’ve got that. If you’re bringing any of this shit into it, it ruins everybody’s experience at the table.

Barry:
[25:30] You do get a chance to talk about that stuff, just not at the fucking table and talk about it with the people that are your mates.

Mark:
[25:35] I was questioning whether the hobby will survive. of this discourse we’ve had is becoming more and more common than that social media is winding people up, let’s be honest. And the whole thing is becoming more difficult to get on with people that don’t have the same opinion as you.

Mark:
[25:48] Does the hobby survive it? Because it doesn’t work if any of those things are brought to the table.

Jon:
[25:52] But you can move. If people don’t like things, they can go to a different group.

Mark:
[25:57] In our society.

Jon:
[25:58] No, no.

Mark:
[25:58] Or online as well.

Jon:
[25:59] Online, amongst your mates. There’ll always be someone who knows someone. You can migrate from groups and systems.

Stephen:
[26:07] I don’t think you play a game based on people’s political opinions, do you? Or you just play a game based on the game. And I think that’s how it works. I think it will continue to work.

Mark:
[26:15] But this is an inclusive hobby. We’d all agree on that, right? Because these things cannot be part of the game. So it naturally creates environments which are very, very inclusive, which we all benefit from. You’ve often said, Barry, you would never guess what we’ve all got in common.

Barry:
[26:28] No, the variety of size, shape, personality, politics, job, all of that stuff that we have in our club is mental.

Stephen:
[26:37] So it brings together people that wouldn’t normally come together, which is perfect, isn’t it? Yeah.

Mark:
[26:42] Yeah, absolutely. That’s what… society is attempting to do right now with so many big changes happening that it is an example of how things should be and how they should work and politics and.

Jon:
[26:51] Media try to divide but this game.

Mark:
[26:53] Yeah absolutely 100.

Barry:
[26:54] Yeah it’s not it’s not just that you’re kind of coming into contact with people that you wouldn’t ordinarily come into contact you’re you’re being forced to sit down and engage with them for three hours.

Mark:
[27:02] At a.

Barry:
[27:02] Time i think it’s probably the only kind of collaborative hobby that i have in my life.

Mark:
[27:06] And we’re dealing with all of these issues aren’t we i mean with politics are in the game and racial issues are in the game i mean they’re they’re strange i we play with people that if they’re in reality if they were in the game they would be discriminated against but they’re able to separate their own feelings of what they’ve experienced in their real life and put it into context in the game or.

Barry:
[27:24] To play someone that would be discriminated against in the game and explore those.

Mark:
[27:27] Yeah that’s it yeah it’s either either isn’t it yeah which is i.

Barry:
[27:31] Think one of the great things about the hobby as well it’s like you can you can sort of try stuff on for size a little bit.

Mark:
[27:36] Yeah i.

Barry:
[27:37] Wonder what being a prick’s like i don’t wonder what being.

Mark:
[27:40] In our community there are lots of other different hobbies that are done in the same center in the same house as we use and i often get told by those that run the community that as a as a group we have the least issues between us all every other group up there no matter how small they are half a dozen people there’s fallings out there’s there’s problems with between personalities yeah we have a hundred people turning up there. you know, over the course of the eight years, I can count on, on one hand or less, how many problems we’ve had real big problems with people. So few. Yeah. It’s just so accommodating. And that’s what I love about it. And that’s, you know, the community so powerful to get, get involved. Don’t, don’t be put off by, um, by the feeling that you know your point of view would not be accepted you nobody’s interested in it they’re only interested in what your character name is what you can do and what you can bring to the table uh so we’ve come off a little bit from what the podcast should have really been talking about at this point either we make two podcasts of this or we tie it up i i just.

Barry:
[28:43] Want to i i stand by everything i said i’ve don’t don’t feel.

Mark:
[28:47] Like anything i said for my benefit if you if you if you want to stand by the fact the acolyte ain’t bad i said.

Stephen:
[28:53] The combat was good i said the combat we didn’t mention stranger things it was really good.

Mark:
[28:59] Oh yeah we gotta mention that quickly yeah brilliant show just just finished positive and so celebrity dungeon masters and the whole online phenomenon watching people play, Our mate Dan went to Wembley Arena, didn’t he, to watch Critical Role. We was back in the old days watching bands play, big bands play. And you’re thinking, what, it’s 40 years’ time? You could be sitting there watching.

Barry:
[29:23] 40 years’ time, someone will be sitting there playing D&D. That’s mental.

Mark:
[29:25] Yeah. Yeah, it is mental. Never would have put money on that.

Stephen:
[29:28] Yeah.

Mark:
[29:28] So these things are.

Stephen:
[29:29] Part of personality.

Mark:
[29:30] A real redemption arc of D&D to the point where we think this might be the pinnacle of it. It might be the only way is down here. Who knows?

Jon:
[29:39] I think it will become more diverse as more people experience the concept of the hobby and how to do things. If they don’t like D&D or whatever system they find, they can find another system. They can make their own system. So I think it will spread. It might thin out, possibly, but that will be still good.

Stephen:
[29:59] I think it might fragment, like you say.

Barry:
[30:00] Yeah, that’s an interesting…

Jon:
[30:02] But it won’t fall apart.

Stephen:
[30:03] No, it’ll stop you there. If you think of the whole community as everyone who plays role-playing games rather than one particular one, then yeah,

Stephen:
[30:08] they’re all still there.

Mark:
[30:09] So I think we’ll draw a line there before we all fall out with each other. And we’ve become too political. I thought this would be a most intense podcast episode to date. And, well, yeah.

Jon:
[30:22] How much of it survives you cutting ruthlessly?

Mark:
[30:25] I’d love to think that none of it gets cut.

Barry:
[30:27] I would like to hear an uncut version. Thank you very much. Because I want to know what things I’ve said would be on the pounds here. Not letting him say that. for this episode could we get a guest editor i think.

Stephen:
[30:41] I think it’d just be you saying hello and then goodbye.

Mark:
[30:44] Okay uh we’ll um we’ll finish the podcast now with our outro segment which is called barry’s bangers.

Barry:
[30:52] Okay so i’m gonna just lighten the mood ever so slightly so this was a recent one as well in my diamond game and this one didn’t, We’ll find out if the underwear is magic when we get there.

Jon:
[31:06] I have questions that I don’t want answers to.

Barry:
[31:10] There was some talk of magic fabric, which obviously meant we could have made it into anything we wanted. We haven’t got the magic fabric yet, but all of a sudden it became, well, pants. If we get an opportunity to make everything we’re all making, who wouldn’t take the opportunity to make magic pants?

Mark:
[31:26] Oh, I thought you’d join one of John’s Sex Dungeon podcasts.

Jon:
[31:29] Us i know the guy there’s a difference those are tragic pants we’re all good to go so let’s slice and dice oh i feel like we should shake hands absolutely.

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