Alignment in D&D 5e

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Episode Transcript

Barry:
[0:00] Welcome to RPG Blokes. Today we’re going to talk about alignment and as a new Player choosing your character’s alignment might seem like a quick and simple Decision but it’s one that can deeply shape your gameplay and roleplay experience.

Mark:
[0:15] First of all I’m going to introduce the RPG Blokes. Barry who is known to have the occasional vice and he has often said this hobby Is the only thing he does that doesn’t involve drinking gambling or planning The downfall of capitalism.

Barry:
[0:31] That’s the truest of all of your introductions so far.

Mark:
[0:34] Okay steven also not completely without the occasional vice although to his Credit he has recently joined bowder’s gate anonymous.

Stephen:
[0:43] Still not played it.

Mark:
[0:44] That’s what they tell you to say okay and finally john who is having no end Of trouble with modern day slang which is a shame as he’s great at gming the Kids but still he has found leaning into his encyclopedic knowledge of porn Is helping him quite a bit.

Jon:
[1:03] That’s wrong right so i’m back on the radio still, Shit.

Mark:
[1:24] In this episode, we’re going to break down the classic alignment system in D&D, From lawful good to chaotic evil, and everything in between. We’ll explain what each alignment represents, and how it can shape your character’s Personality and motivations, and why it’s such a powerful tool for storytelling. The D&D system is brilliant. It relies upon two axes. So it’s not a simple choice of good or evil. You have the good, neutral, and evil axis, and you have the lawful and chaotic Axis as well. and they combine and create variations. I would like to just run through them all so that you can have an idea which One might suit you better as a player. I think it’s a good, simple, quick choice to establish some kind of identity to your character. We’ll go through them in turn and we’ll start at lawful good. The classic hero, I think, that values order and justice, always striving to Do what’s right within the bounds of laws and morality.

Stephen:
[2:19] Or the authoritarian, I like to call them. Someone declares their lawful good. You know he potentially were in for a bit of a ride here especially if he’s A stronger character i think people feel compelled to really push the lawful Good i think it’s one extreme of the spectrum isn’t it.

Mark:
[2:31] But it can quite easily come across as something other than good can’t it because Which law are you following which which code of conduct.

Stephen:
[2:38] So they would follow all laws at all times no matter what they were the good Part of them should dictate that they would follow them to the best of their Intent rather than try and twist them technically lawful good should be, A good guy but yeah sometimes it gets twisted doesn’t it because it is an extreme Alignment a zealot yeah I think you could put a zealot in lawful good you could Get away with it and people will have yeah.

Mark:
[2:59] John what’s your take on lawful good.

Jon:
[3:01] So well lawful good is the law but if you’ve got say a paladin in lawful evil city slavery’s legal, It’s the law. What do you do? You’ve got what’s good and you’ve got what’s lawful. And rather than used to browbeat a character, it’s nice to make them question things.

Mark:
[3:17] How would a lawful good character approach slavery in your opinion?

Jon:
[3:21] Maybe buy them all legally and then set them free. That’d be a way of doing it. You’re still working with the law by legally buying Them, not upsetting the apple cart. But then you’re perpetuating the system.

Stephen:
[3:32] Yeah, exactly. So I think you’d want to stop slavery, wouldn’t you?

Jon:
[3:35] Do it legally, yeah.

Stephen:
[3:37] Campaigning. peaceful protest yeah a strong leaflet campaign by a lawful good character.

Mark:
[3:41] Which has never worked so barry I i play a lawful good character it didn’t begin as such but i i find myself Portraying that at the table amongst quite questionable characters like your Own who are tending who are very chaotic and tending toward evil i feel like The arsehole and yet you’re the evil characters you know it’s strange how do You feel that dynamic works for you i.

Barry:
[4:04] Think there is much more of a chance of a lawful good character being an arsehole Than there is a chaotic neutral you know we all know these people who the rule Of law is absolute and there is no flexibility there’s no gray areas there’s No those people are the people that end up leading armies into genocide there’s.

Jon:
[4:23] Nothing worse than someone who knows that they’re right.

Mark:
[4:27] I think talking about the crusades for instance because the lawful good paladin Or knight is often seen as you know that that’s virtuous and then the crusades Which were far from virtuous you know that they they had an agenda but would You have said that’s a good agenda it’s it was a religious solitary that but That is seen as a as a stereotypical lawful good it’s.

Barry:
[4:48] Just reminded me of a saying every army that’s gone to war has thought that They had god on their side even the opposing army that were fighting you believed That they had god on their side do you know what i mean it’s like there was No doubt that, well, they think they’ve got God on their side. We also think we’ve got God on their side.

Stephen:
[5:05] Let’s find out.

Barry:
[5:05] Fight.

Mark:
[5:08] Yeah, so it’s very subjective. Not a nice alignment.

Stephen:
[5:12] It’s an extreme alignment.

Jon:
[5:13] Dragon Warriors is pretty good for that because a lot of the setting is when You’ve got your wandering knights, you’ve got them coming back from the Crusade. And then it’s down to how you view your experiences. My Sunday one, he’s like a battlefield knight. He was a squire, Very much that mentality. He saw some shit. But he’s quite young, and he’s come back.

Mark:
[5:36] Are you still playing as lawful good for his alignment change?

Jon:
[5:39] He tries to be a good guy.

Mark:
[5:41] So moving on to neutral good, a champion of goodness who prioritises doing what’s Right over strict adherence to rules or chaos seeking balance in their actions.

Stephen:
[5:50] I’m going to say it’s my least favourite good alignment. It’s a bit new.

Jon:
[5:57] Wishy-washy.

Mark:
[5:58] Obviously, it’s the pure good.

Stephen:
[5:59] Maybe that’s what I find boring about it.

Mark:
[6:01] I like Neutral Good. It’s good for good’s sake. And I like the fact that if I’m watching a film, that the lead protagonist could be Neutral Good. I like the good guy.

Barry:
[6:10] Can I just say as well, that is one of my favourite inside my head hobbies is When I’m watching something and, oh, what alignment are they? And every now and then you get something that is just like, that is the perfect Portrayal of whatever the alignment is that they’re portraying.

Mark:
[6:26] It’s good practice, isn’t it, for your character play and understanding the system. So let’s move on to character good. but it’s described here as a free spirit Who fights for justice and freedom following their own moral compass rather Than the laws and traditions of society what differentiates um particularly Say a main protagonist from being neutral good to chaotic good for you steam coolness.

Barry:
[6:49] I mean it’s.

Stephen:
[6:51] Far more cool to be Cowley Good than Newt’s Good oh come on it is Cowley Good You are the Maverick you’re the guy you’re Tom Cruise you’re the one that just Breaks the rules to do something cool and good I mean it’s no comparison Cowley Good’s the way to go it is the best alignment and the end you don’t need to Disgust him I’ll carry on next one.

Barry:
[7:09] No one respects someone who ends up with a call sign like Maverick because you Just think oh you pompous prick.

Stephen:
[7:15] Yeah i guess they are pompous chaotic good but they are cool.

Barry:
[7:18] Because actually chaotic good is my favorite line to play it is just stunningly Good fun you can kind of justify most behaviors from the slightest immoral behavior By someone else the chaotic part like the good part is that person did bad the Chaotic part is i’m gonna fuck them up you.

Mark:
[7:36] Are good right so you’re just as good as a lawful good character is concerned Or neutral good and that direction that moral compass is quite helpful within the game.

Barry:
[7:44] But the chaos.

Mark:
[7:45] Chaotic nature of it makes it a little bit more fun to play like you’re saying And but you’re still making those choices between good and evil it’s.

Jon:
[7:52] Chaotic good is probably the easiest one to play.

Barry:
[7:55] If as a person in the real world you are generally a pretty decent guy chaotic Good is a doddle to play it just absolutely is and and you know i think it’s The alignment that i’ve played most and i think it’s the alignment that i played First um and although you know i say i’ll act outside of my alignment it’s the One that i’ve got the most affection for for those reasons yeah.

Mark:
[8:14] Yeah.

Stephen:
[8:15] It’s the best one i think.

Mark:
[8:16] Yeah yeah it is yeah so that let’s move on to chaotic neutral then which is A bit of the unpredictable about it it’s a wild card it’s driven by personal Freedom and whim and prioritizes individuality above all else and it’s it’s Not evil it’s not good it’s been used.

Jon:
[8:33] To justify any level of bullshit the player wanted to do because it’s what my character would do.

Barry:
[8:38] Over.

Jon:
[8:39] The years it’s wrong but it does mean you’re playing it with no preset limits and, It’s difficult to trust that, that the character that’s being played under that umbrella. To play that, you’ve got to be slightly unhinged. It’s more of a Joker thing.

Mark:
[8:58] That’s a challenging alignment to play, based upon that.

Jon:
[9:01] To do it properly, it’s the most difficult.

Mark:
[9:04] And maybe the most destructive within the game, would you say?

Jon:
[9:07] On a personal level, yeah. It’s how to be a dick and get away with it.

Mark:
[9:11] In the past, I’ve played chaotic neutral characters and quite enjoyed them. I think as I’ve become more mature, I think I’m less likely to do so. Yeah, they’re very destructive, and they don’t have any concern for anybody else. And they’re great to play strong characters with, like fighters, I find. What’s your take on chaotic neutral?

Jon:
[9:26] When we’re 12.

Mark:
[9:27] Yeah.

Stephen:
[9:28] Well, speaking of when we’re 12, I think chaotic neutral become a very popular Alignment with the early editions because it was a bit of a finger up to the DM who tried to control you. It’s kind of, I’m chaotic neutral, You can’t stop me doing this shit. I wouldn’t agree it’s the most destructive, because I think chaotic evil should Be the most destructive because it has chaos and evil in it, Whereas these chaos, it has a neutral element, which you should be able to rein Yourself back in a little bit.

Mark:
[9:47] If your DM says nobody can be evil, then you can…

Stephen:
[9:50] Counter neutral is great. It’s brilliant. It’s my second favourite alignment Because of the old school nature of it. I don’t want to hassle when people are Saying, what’s your alignment? You’re just saying, well, I’m just counter neutral, and the people just leave you alone.

Mark:
[10:00] Okay, moving on to the next alignment. So we’re going to go to lawful neutral. A strict adherence to the rules, order, or a personal code, acting without bias Towards good or evil balance is their goal.

Jon:
[10:13] That’s the most hateful one for me i had so many difficulties playing i did It but you apply the rule of law without favor.

Mark:
[10:22] Or prejudice as they as the system likes to tell tell us the legal.

Jon:
[10:26] System and that’s that’s what it is it doesn’t allow for the right or wrong Of a situation so the letter of the law can put away good people as much as it does the bad.

Stephen:
[10:36] I’ve played lawful neutral in dnd when it’s when the priesthoods dictated it There was priests of law i had great fun with it it’s a good it is very Straightforward i think the play has its rules and you know exactly where they Are and it is the judicial system is lawful neutral for sure you just act as If you are the embodiment of The judicial system yeah and you can’t go wrong so barrett but i suggest.

Mark:
[10:59] That lawful neutral might be quite a challenging alignment for you to accurately play good.

Barry:
[11:04] I mean I think, Yeah no i don’t think i could i had a little think about anyways no i can’t I was trying to find a circumstance i was like well maybe i can’t you just don’t Think you wouldn’t enjoy.

Mark:
[11:17] It or you just don’t think you.

Barry:
[11:17] I wouldn’t enjoy it and also i don’t think the other players at the table would Enjoy me doing it i don’t think i would do it well and again i’d say to new Players like this might sound like this stuff is really deep and i know i can See steven looking at me already because he doesn’t like what’s gonna but this Stuff for me just It’s taking that deep. Play the game how you want to play It. Fuck your alignment.

Mark:
[11:37] You’re never going to play lawful neutral with that attitude.

Barry:
[11:41] I don’t want to make it sound like I’m doing alignment down. I just think it’s such a small part of what we do.

Stephen:
[11:49] Not this podcast. It can be.

Jon:
[11:52] But we are talking about alignment.

Mark:
[11:54] This is a whippersnapper. Effectively, he hasn’t gone through what we’ve gone, The pains of the alignment system.

Jon:
[11:59] Damn kids, the new fat in the edition wars.

Mark:
[12:05] I don’t love one.

Stephen:
[12:06] No, I wouldn’t choose it particularly, but if you wanted to play a character That’s very different to your own moral compass, then it is a good one.

Jon:
[12:14] There was a good, I think it was the next generation, it was an away team, This fluffy little planet, everyone was nice, everyone was pleasant, And there was a keep off the grass. And some kids were playing, toy landed on the grass, that’s it, Death sentence. One rule, one thing.

Mark:
[12:32] That’s lawful evil surely i’m.

Stephen:
[12:35] Not sure lawful neutral society.

Mark:
[12:36] Would have that law lawful societies don’t have to be good yeah that’s where lawful.

Jon:
[12:42] In warhammer as just lawful is probably the darkest one to go that’s the law We’re gonna burn you because that’s the law absolutely absolutely.

Mark:
[12:53] So what in dnd what would be the equivalent alignment of that one if the warhammer lawful do you think.

Jon:
[13:01] Probably, yeah.

Mark:
[13:03] Yeah.

Jon:
[13:03] That’s why. It’s something to be wary of.

Stephen:
[13:06] It’s a neutral take on it. They would just take the law as written. There’s no evil take on it. There’s no good take on it.

Jon:
[13:11] I mean, Dredd, technically, lawful neutral, but he’s a good guy. He does it because he loves the city. He wants to protect people from themselves. But the law is first and foremost.

Barry:
[13:23] Not an awesome guy. Not a good guy. Not a good guy.

Jon:
[13:27] Bury my heart at wounded knee. Read that. That’ll change your mind. I’ve said this before.

Barry:
[13:31] This is the thing about alignment, and this is true in fiction as it is in life, Is good people do bad things, bad people do good things. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a singular good person. Everyone’s done something stupid and wrong in their life. I don’t see Judge Redd as a good character.

Jon:
[13:48] Yeah, I’d hate to live there.

Barry:
[13:49] Well, I’d be in an ISO cube or shot within a week, probably just for things that I’ve fucking said.

Mark:
[13:54] I’m going to move on to True Neutral, and this is an alignment I’ve always had trouble with, Because i don’t fucking understand it um so i want somebody to explain to me Really apart from the edge roots are too neutral it’s kind of you’re in touch With nature and all of that what what is true neutral what how can that.

Jon:
[14:09] Work please somebody give it i would say the second most Difficult one to play after lawful neutral because that That is the no preconceived ideas uh originally creatures Like things of you know creature intelligence or Lower were listed as neutral it wasn’t a real Alignment it’s really difficult to uh have a character that’s got a reason to Play if you’re going to be true neutral i would say interact with anything i Suppose so traditionally if a druid’s environment woods or whatever is being Threatened they’ve got a reason to join up with the party to readdress the balance bring things.

Mark:
[14:46] Back into balance.

Jon:
[14:47] Yes a druid might do something good and then deliberately do something they Perceive as equally evil for the balance sounds.

Mark:
[14:57] A bit screwed up to me.

Jon:
[14:57] And that is why it is difficult to play one of the things i saw was a green Dragon which i don’t know about now but traditionally they were neutral evil, But they would also live in more or less harmony with their environment. They lived in woodlands and such like. So a druid wouldn’t have too much of a problem with them. Alignment be damned. And then you might get good hunters coming along to kill the evil dragon. And the druid might defend the dragon.

Stephen:
[15:30] Obviously, as we’ve seen, we can’t describe the neutral alignment without mentioning Druids, can we? It just seems to be the traditional way, isn’t it? And I think it’s the hardest alignment for sure. i’ve seen it played two different Ways either just doing nothing which is probably correct, Or you or you do the balance thing which is probably better for a game again Your druids only if someone’s invading the forest burning it down you’d stop It wouldn’t you so and then you’d get involved in it because it’s a it’s tipping The balance one way or another i think that’s probably the best way to approach it.

Mark:
[15:57] What about a monk as well the zen nature of these things is it.

Stephen:
[16:01] Yeah we can get something and they just sit there don’t they i think a neutral Character would take on the characteristics of the rest of the party i think That would make more sense if they were evil you go okay i will uphold what They want to do but equally then you could join a good party and uphold their Values i think that’s where the um the strength of a neutral character would be again.

Jon:
[16:17] Off the back of the monk there that reminds me of a series of books by shapir And murphy and it’s a martial arts assassin who is neutral it’s whoever pays Obviously the target deserves it doesn’t matter if they don’t take the money do the thing.

Barry:
[16:35] That’s the first time someone’s described like a true neutral character. I was like, yes, a million percent. A professional assassin, Not with any allegiances.

Stephen:
[16:42] Not doing it for evil purposes.

Barry:
[16:44] A character like that being neutral would be really good fun to play. So I think for we’re to be thinking about neutral, I find it hard to imagine How a neutral person ends up with skin in the game. Like how does a true neutral end up with motivations? And motivations are a Really important part of your character’s journey. And again, they’re not fixed. But yeah, true neutral. I don’t think I’ve ever Been at a table with someone playing it.

Stephen:
[17:08] Would it be a character motivated purely by money? I guess Hitman and stuff Would be motivated by money and alone or assassin.

Barry:
[17:16] Well, no, but its title is very bland, isn’t it? Do you know what I mean? It doesn’t help it. It doesn’t sound exciting. Like chaotic good sounds like, you know, there’s some spark and some pizzazz About that. Well, you’re neutral.

Mark:
[17:27] Yeah. So we’re moving on to the last three alignments now, which are all of the evil ones. We’ll start with Lawful Evil. A cunning villain who uses structure and rules To achieve their selfish or malicious goals, often as a manipulative authority.

Jon:
[17:42] Politician.

Stephen:
[17:43] We mentioned the drow. In the books we’re reading by us, R.A. Salvatore, if you want to get a Lawful Evil Society, that was hugely well detailed. Lawful Evil Society made the drow.

Jon:
[17:53] Which is why Lawful tried to interfere, because she wanted it going back to chaos.

Stephen:
[17:57] It was kind of like houses, wasn’t it? Different houses were vying for superiority. They’re all adhered to the rules.

Mark:
[18:03] A lawful evil character would use the law to his own ends.

Stephen:
[18:06] Yeah, for certain, but would adhere to it out of fear, I believe, Rather than the belief in it, but the fear of being punished.

Jon:
[18:12] The Empire in Star Wars, lawful evil. It might be filled with people that are working for stability and the future And structure. That’s the lawful side. But how it’s applied, evil.

Stephen:
[18:26] Stormtroopers have families too.

Jon:
[18:28] Yeah, well, depends on the generation, but yeah.

Mark:
[18:32] The next one is neutral evil, a self-serving character who acts solely out of Personal gain, unconcerned with law or chaos, pure pragmatism. Pure evil, would you say, Stephen?

Stephen:
[18:43] I suppose he’s the sort of person that would do something evil in modern day And not be sent to a mental asylum. They would actually take the hit for it And they wouldn’t be able to claim they were mentally insane when they performed the action.

Mark:
[18:54] So more dangerous than chaotic evil?

Stephen:
[18:55] Don’t know. A bit more predictable, I suppose.

Mark:
[18:57] Can you be a stupid neutral evil or is it an intelligent evil?

Stephen:
[19:01] I feel like you’ve got to be a little bit savvy. Like a serial killer, You’ve got to challenge the people after you, haven’t you?

Jon:
[19:06] I would put forward, if you take away neutral evil and neutral good, And change neutral to natural… In each case it’s just what they inherently are it might not be chosen it’s Just i mean yeah neutral evil is the the darkest of the evils so.

Mark:
[19:25] We’ll end up with another chaotic alignment and that is the chaotic evil a destructive Force of anarchy and malice.

Barry:
[19:31] So many supervillains are chaotic evil yeah you know it’s like there’s no rhyme Or reason it’s power hungry but you can also take it right the way down to your You know the bloke who’s going to beat someone half to death for saying the wrong thing to him i.

Mark:
[19:46] Thought he was going to say with a pure.

Barry:
[19:47] Tanker i just i’d like to point out that the alignment of that character that Beat someone to death with a pure tanker was chaotic good and let me finish And it was and it was because he was settling, Injustice that’s chaotic good.

Jon:
[20:03] Yeah john cakey Will have a bit of fun with that um if you’re going To have like the big bad they’ve got to be powerful to carry that shed off they’ve Got to be you know your big dragons your powerful mages because might makes Right and they expect their underlings to try to move upwards within the company A chaos does not always mean stupid, Slightly less planning but smarter on the fly does.

Mark:
[20:32] Have a stupid feel about it doesn’t it chaotic evil.

Jon:
[20:34] I think so.

Stephen:
[20:35] Yeah I think the villain would be the sort of villain that would want the end of the world, Type villain you know it’s chaotic evil well why would a neutral evil person Wouldn’t want the world to end would they definitely not a lot of evil wouldn’t Want the world to end but chaotic evil the sort of villains that want to destroy The world okay and then have a new world order potentially in it and where they’re The top of it they’re they’re the most destructive they’re the ones that want To wipe the world out just because they can but.

Mark:
[21:01] They’re the larger than life villain.

Stephen:
[21:02] Yeah they are they’re the ultimate villain that’s why you know it’s it’s a tricky One to play as a character if you play on that scale i think that’s why a lot Of the villains are chaotic evil because they just want to kill people for just I mean it doesn’t make sense why would you want to kill the entire world you Won’t be able to rule the world i just want to do it anyway it’s what they do It’s all anarchy it’s anarchy it’s it man i don’t care yeah yeah.

Mark:
[21:21] Pretty pretty difficult to play like a megalomaniac.

Jon:
[21:24] Could be fun if that’s your big badge you’re setting him up to fail.

Mark:
[21:28] You can probably tell there’s a quite a big difference between three of us here That played for 40 years and our approach to alignment and how much it’s baked Into the way that we approach the game as old timers steven me and john alignment Runs very deeply into our experience of the hobby but for a new player like Barry that’s not quite the case um.

Barry:
[21:46] No you were very lenient with me when i first started because i just did whatever I wanted as a player regardless of you know what i thought at the time and kind Of still do a little bit now what was an arbitrary decision that i’d made at The beginning of the campaign so i do think about alignment a bit more now.

Mark:
[22:03] But you’ve picked up on the fact that there isn’t so much emphasis on the choice Of alignment in the fifth edition of Dungeons & Dragons. You know the alignments. I mean, you’ve played it long enough to know them.

Barry:
[22:11] I know the alignments. I do now give more consideration than I did because I think it’s fair. You know, if you’ve said that your player is lawful good and you go, Oh, I’m going to cut his hands off, I think the DM should come in and say, Well, you know, do you want to discuss changing your alignment?

Jon:
[22:28] Anesthetic first, then cut his fucking hands off.

Stephen:
[22:31] I think people could argue that. That’s a very lawful good thing to do. I’ve had players do that. But I think the Lyman… It’s a miracle. It survived from the first edition To the fifth. I’m honest… It’s not really changed since the first edition, but… In the first edition, it had mechanically a huge impact on the game, And in fifth edition, it has zero mechanically impact on the game.

Mark:
[22:53] Yeah, explain how it used to be.

Stephen:
[22:54] Well, yeah, so certain classes, like paladins, had to be lawful good. If you was a thief, a rogue character, you could not be lawful. Yeah, but now you can. That’s the thing. There’s swaps it all around. So paladins don’t have to be lawful good, and rogues can be lawful good if they Wish to be, because obviously it’s a choice.

Mark:
[23:11] It was used as a straitjacket too, wasn’t it?

Stephen:
[23:14] Yeah, I was going to say that. Yeah, the amount of DMs that would use it as A hammer to get their players to play exactly like they wanted to do. So it’s a little bit hand-fisted. I like the alignment system, but that may be dislike it. Because someone says, oh, is that awful good? Can you really do that? And the DM never said, oh, you’re not very chaotic evil, are you? I’d rather you be a little bit more chaotic evil. It’s always to try and get People to be good, not to be evil.

Mark:
[23:36] Do you remember forced alignment changes and you lose?

Stephen:
[23:39] Yeah, you lost two levels for forced alignment changes. So it was very much a deep mechanic.

Barry:
[23:42] What’s a forced alignment change?

Stephen:
[23:44] If the DM deems that you’re not playing your alignment, you’d be forced to change To an alignment he deemed that you were playing and you would lose two levels.

Mark:
[23:51] And you don’t want your DM dictating that to you. I think that’s a very old School we’ve already discussed that that doesn’t work too well in modern role playing. Barry, you like to play a chaotic alignment. Is that what you do? Do you choose an alignment that suits you as a person or do sometimes you try And do something a little bit different?

Barry:
[24:06] So I think I choose an alignment that suits me as a person. I mean, Generally speaking, I would play chaotic neutral or chaotic good. But I think alignment is useful in thinking Like what kind of character do I want to play what do I want This guy to be like I’m considering it’s Something that I’ve been thinking about for a while now having a go at playing An evil character I think you know I think that’s something that every RPG should Do at some point I think that sounds like fun I understand that mechanically Things have to be done to keep the game fluid and to keep the game moving we’ve Discussed how that works in combat and spells etc etc but I do think that you Know when you’re talking about you You know, Alignment is essentially a person’s morality. And I don’t like the idea that morality is a fixed thing. I think good people are capable of evil deeds and I think evil people are capable of good deeds. And sometimes I think it depends on, you know, what side of bed you get out on in the morning.

Mark:
[24:56] By applying that alignment to your own play of the character, Then you can have those complexities to it, tendances as we used to call them.

Stephen:
[25:04] Yeah, but that’s why everyone migrated eventually, I think, probably universally, To just play chaotic neutral. because that was just seen as you can do anything You like and someone will say oh you can’t do that well just point down to the Character it’s more chaotic neutral yeah it’s kind of like.

Mark:
[25:19] Whereas now we’re kind of recommending it as a tool to help you create a.

Stephen:
[25:24] Distinctive character everyone will ask you what your alignment is when you’ve Made an action in the game even now probably maybe not so much but everyone’s Saying what alignment are you again and it’s kind of like it does pop up the player that, Doesn’t tell you alignment you just instantly know they’re cow to gable I mean it’s just the way it is isn’t it people like To keep those things quite secret don’t they did yeah anyone kept their Alignment secret it was definitely a cow to gable and you had the guy that declared They were lawful good you always thought oh god here we go yeah the lawful good Was probably just as bad as cow to gable because they’re very authoritarian Aren’t they and usually i’m lawful good yeah it’s followed up by and you’ve Got all got to do as i say usually usually happens after that statement yeah It’s all good it usually does it just does it’s like the old vegan joke because as you.

Mark:
[26:06] Know somebody’s lawful good.

Stephen:
[26:07] Yeah they tell you about it it is it is that alignment because i think because The old story you speak tied to a paladin there.

Mark:
[26:14] Is an alignment system that applies in independent games.

Jon:
[26:17] Most of the ones i play don’t have an alignment there’s like it’s more of a Role play thing warhammer has a better take on it so you’ve got uh in warhammer You’ve got good which is mostly used to stop the elves from becoming op in original edition, Lawful which i found to be the darkest uh law for the sake of it didn’t.

Mark:
[26:42] Come with the good.

Jon:
[26:43] Caveat did it no no so lawful was Uh the sulkernite witch hunters they are Truly evil bastards but because they it’s the law It didn’t have right or wrong attached it was the law i’d rather work with someone Who’s evil in warhammer terms than someone who’s lawful evil you can work with That they’re self-centered you know about it neutral and chaos were the others Chaos were the or are the the the big bad it’s this.

Stephen:
[27:11] That was the worst alignment wasn’t it in general yes they.

Jon:
[27:14] Are the opposition evil will work against chaos because chaos will swamp you.

Mark:
[27:19] But interestingly and i agree that’s a great system for for showing how alignment Can work different to dnd and really well they’ve dropped alignment from the fourth edition.

Stephen:
[27:28] You shall find any system that puts an alignment in it it’s not D&D that’s why I’m thinking it’s done awesome to survive to modern day it’s.

Mark:
[27:34] There it’s there in 2024 edition and we think that you know it’s worth considering It’s a quick choice that surprises me.

Jon:
[27:41] Because it’s discrimination, I’m going to need you to elaborate on that.

Stephen:
[27:47] It forces you into opposition with other player characters which we kind of Very much did in early editions didn’t it it did force you because you would Make the declaration as you love for good characters and if you lot are evil We’re going to have a problem that’s yeah that is i guess that’s a role play It’s a forced role play dynamic isn’t it i don’t it’s not discriminating so It’s more kind of focusing you in as.

Jon:
[28:07] Soon as something is one or the other that’s a.

Stephen:
[28:09] Discriminatory part you’re making a choice that’s excluding another choice so.

Mark:
[28:14] Soon who do you think um benefits the most from from the line the dm or the player.

Stephen:
[28:19] The dm certainly can because certainly if That’s if the players stick to the alignment because it’s very difficult especially In modern day dnd but if all the player characters have law for good on their On their character sheet you know you’re probably in for a certain type of scenario Or certain sort of reaction from the players they’re gonna want to do technically What’s good and what’s best whereas you’ve got someone having chaotic evil and If they’re playing their alignment correctly, And it would be random and it’d be chaos. Yeah, I mean, some people with chaotic alignments have got dice out and rolled It, and then that decide what they do. I mean, it’s very chaotic.

Mark:
[28:54] Yeah, we have one of those.

Stephen:
[28:55] Is that you, Barry?

Barry:
[28:56] No, it’s not. He does some terrible things, but he also has meaningful bonds And relationships with everyone else in the party. We are still working as a team, and there is an element of, we need someone To do something drastic. Where’s the evil guy?

Stephen:
[29:09] That’s quite a modern take, I think, on the alignment system, Because back in the day, But if someone wasn’t acting particularly chaotic evil, He would lose two levels from it. I think it’s good to have the shades of light and dark. I think it’s better.

Barry:
[29:20] And this is what I was saying, the idea that we just all have this fixed morality Is ridiculous, both in-game and out-of-game.

Stephen:
[29:27] I think that’s why they took the mechanics out of the alignment system for the better, I think.

Mark:
[29:31] There are certain types of character that alignment can still have quite a large part in, can’t they? For instance, if you’re a priest, then your god will have a certain moral compass And alignment. and if you stray from that, a DM should take it. Yeah, they used to.

Stephen:
[29:46] I’m not sure if they do anymore. They’re kind of like, more kind of like gods Of battle, gods of this, not really of morality. I think they’ve taken morality out of a lot of the religion.

Jon:
[29:54] Justice world.

Barry:
[29:55] Real world shit.

Stephen:
[29:56] Yeah, I think it’s more kind of very generic. You’ve got war domains, You’ve got healing domains.

Mark:
[30:02] Barry, do you want to have the final say on the line?

Barry:
[30:04] Yeah, don’t worry folks, it’s not that deep. You know, pick your alignment, enjoy it. If your character is going in a certain direction and you want him to behave in a certain way, Have a chat with your dm you know look this guy because Of these experiences he i think His alignment might be changing and actually i think that’s a uh like a really Good bit of role play for someone to do that for someone to realize that this Decision that they made a while ago because of the things that have happened To them in game will change you and it should change your character your character Shouldn’t if your character is behaving at the beginning of a campaign you’re, The end of the campaign in exactly the same way, I don’t think you’ve role-played that character.

Mark:
[30:43] No, that’s part of the journey.

Barry:
[30:44] It is.

Mark:
[30:45] And that alignment shift is there for you to have. It’s a lot easier to change From chaotic neutral to anything else than to begin, perhaps, As evil and turn to good. That’s a lot more challenging.

Barry:
[30:54] Well, you know, I don’t know that it is. Redemption arcs happen, And so does the descent into evil. Films and literature would be pretty barren without both of those. I mean, have you watched Breaking bad well.

Mark:
[31:06] Worth watching that alone isn’t it just to get an idea of those character arcs And maybe more fun starting at one extreme and having in mind that you might Like to make your way to the other i think i’ve never done that i’ve never approached.

Barry:
[31:17] A game like that and this is absolutely one see This is one of the things i love about this hobby i honestly think i could be Playing this for the rest of my life and still think oh you know i haven’t quite Played that option out and i haven’t done that and i haven’t had that scenario And i’ve never done a character go from this to that that’s the beauty of it It’s truly it’s one of the truly endless things out there yeah.

Jon:
[31:37] So you’re saying you might ref once you’re in your 90s yeah, Do

Barry:
[31:44] You know what do you know what the only the only time in my life that i will Consider reffing is once i have retired from work that’s is the god’s honest hold on well that’s.

Mark:
[31:53] A thing that’s from record.

Barry:
[31:54] I’ve always said i’ve always said that it’s like a big responsibility and because Because of the time pressures involved and stuff like that, I have a fair idea Of how much work you guys put into it, and I ain’t got the time to put that Work in. I just simply haven’t.

Mark:
[32:07] Okay, RPG blow to season 10. Barry’s going to be…

Stephen:
[32:10] It’s turned for never, so maybe.

Mark:
[32:13] Yes, what’s going on there? That’s good.

Stephen:
[32:15] Slippery slope.

Mark:
[32:18] Okay, so we’ve come to the end of this podcast. Stephen, we’ve got a new format for the…

Jon:
[32:25] State-approved wisdom.

Mark:
[32:26] So I don’t know whether you’ve managed in the time past to come up with a saying, But I’ve got another one for you because, yeah, have a look.

Stephen:
[32:34] I’ll practice that.

Mark:
[32:35] Yeah.

Stephen:
[32:36] Who’s that?

Mark:
[32:38] I don’t know who it is, but everyone knows the quote.

Stephen:
[32:40] Okay. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Samuel Johnson.

Mark:
[32:46] Who’s that?

Stephen:
[32:47] I don’t know.

Mark:
[32:48] Why’d you say a quote that you don’t know who it is?

Stephen:
[32:49] You handed it to me. Like a good drone, I said it. Anyway. Slice and dice. Bye.