Independent RPG’s the Beginners Guide

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Mark:
[0:00] Welcome to RPG Blokes, the podcast where we help middle-aged newcomers discover The joys of tabletop role-playing games. If you’ve started your journey with Dungeons & Dragons and are wondering what Else is out there, this episode is for you. This week we’re talking about other popular RPGs. While D&D might dominate the spotlight, the role-playing hobby is rich with Incredible games that offer unique experiences, stories and challenges. So, introducing the rpg blokes i’ll start with john uh the indie games specialist No system is too small no scenario is too old no bookcase is able to deal with all those books that’s.

Jon:
[0:41] What the floor’s for.

Mark:
[0:41] Thank god for pdfs unnecessary evil seriously uh steven who has a kickstarter Curse as he has yet to buy into a successful indie RPG project. Thankfully, none of the games we’re going to talk about today were backed by him.

Stephen:
[1:00] Yes, I will curse them, so I’ll let you know which ones I go for.

Mark:
[1:04] You’ve had some pretty bad experiences there.

Stephen:
[1:05] Haven’t you? One or two, yeah.

Mark:
[1:07] Okay. Didn’t you have a fight at Dragon’s Mate once?

Stephen:
[1:10] Not me. Someone else did that for me. I observed it.

Mark:
[1:13] And Barry, who has a fair bit of indie game experience and is always up for Trying out something new, as long as he can take a Warlock with Eldritch Blast. So I’ve broken this discussion into key areas, each highlighting a strength Or unique feature that indie games bring to the table. And I’d like to just run through these things with you blokes and discuss along The way we can talk about the games we have a particular passion for. I also just want to say at the beginning that the context of this episode, We’re using the term indie to broadly mean any tabletop RPG that isn’t Dungeons and Dragons. It’s a bit of a catch-all definition. and admittedly it’s a little unfair to Some of these games which are hardly small scale or niche but for the purpose Of this conversation we just want to distinguish these games from the dominance Of D&D which tends to be most people’s first or only exposure to the hobby. Right so we’re going to start that you can experience Other fantasy worlds that’s high fantasy or Or standard fantasy beyond the D&D system So although D&D does a fantastic job of Delivering fantasy adventures some systems offer Entirely different takes on what fantasy can be And these games explore worlds steeped in Deep lore unique magic systems or culturally rich Settings that feel quite fresh and distinct I’ll give some examples of those for instance the one ring which is based upon The the world of middle earth and tolkien’s books or earth dawn which has been Mentioned before and these can give you quite a different experience to dnd But keep you rooted in the fantasy genre Stephen is what would you say about it yeah.

Stephen:
[3:02] I think you get get to a point in D&D you think yeah I fancy something it’s Playing different I think an indie game does offer something fresh especially On the fantasy world with lesser magic or more magic it certainly gives you I think it freshens up your your passion for the hobby.

Mark:
[3:16] Okay because you don’t need to to play D&D to get that experience and play your Elf and your dwarf and and have those basic fantasy elements to a game, Doesn’t need to be dnd.

Stephen:
[3:26] It doesn’t need to be dnd no there are other games that emulate dnd in the fantasy setting so.

Mark:
[3:31] Let’s say for instance earththorn which you’ve mentioned in previous podcasts So how would you differentiate that you play the basic fantasy tropes you’ve Still got those those monsters but what what.

Stephen:
[3:39] Really differentiates races they incorporate into Earththorn different uh magics and the world is completely and utterly different I think with earththorn i think the world is what separates it and the the tone Of it is crossed between kind of a horror setting and a fantasy setting horrors Took over the worlds so humanity and all the races had to hide so it has a completely Different feel to a to a dnd game yeah.

Jon:
[4:02] There can be a bit of a fallout vibe but.

Stephen:
[4:04] Yeah i mean the dice system is is is like chalk and cheese it’s completely different It’s like a dice pool system and.

Mark:
[4:10] The point really i think from this this section is just to say if you want to Play a fantasy game it doesn’t have to be dnd.

Jon:
[4:16] Well yeah obviously there’s our favourite Dragon Warriors which is much more Centred around more or less dark ages Europe but they also in the books they Say look we took something because it’s cool so you’ll get some stuff from the Renaissance period Italy, Alongside you know your smoky mead halls of a Nordic chieftain so it’s not historically Accurate by any stretch but there’s a good job.

Mark:
[4:46] Of being so doesn’t it thank you I’d They bring in the Crusades and.

Jon:
[4:49] They’ve got.

Mark:
[4:50] Christianity in all but name and gets us, because we’re British and it’s very Much a British flavour and feel to it, which shouldn’t only appeal to people from Britain. Barry, you’ve played a lot of Dragon Warriors. What do you think really differentiates A system like that and other fantasy systems like Dragon Warriors from D&D?

Barry:
[5:09] I mean, I enjoyed it. For me, if I’m going to play an indie game, I think I would be more likely to go something that wasn’t in a fantasy setting. Because for me, I feel like D&D ticks the boxes of familiarity that I have with that. If I was going to do something different, it would be a completely different World. It would be not in a fantasy setting.

Mark:
[5:29] And we’re going to cover those and discuss them, but it’s interesting you should Say that because the first point was to kind of point out that there are other Fantasy worlds, but you as a fairly fresh player who has a main experience of playing D&D, That is something you wouldn’t necessarily feel that you’d fancy doing. Why play that? Learn a new world.

Barry:
[5:49] We did Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and I really, really enjoyed that. But I think now if I was going to be seeking out a game that wasn’t D&D, Which I do do from time to time, then it would be something that is in a completely Different world. It would either be science fiction or even mundane.

Mark:
[6:01] Well, actually, with Warhammer, that comes into a different category from what I’ve put down here anyway. Oh, really?

Barry:
[6:04] Does it?

Mark:
[6:05] I think you find it gives you something else.

Barry:
[6:06] It’s got the word fantasy in the title.

Mark:
[6:08] But… Yeah, okay. But, you know, I’m thinking more of the One Ring, for instance. You know, you could take a system which isn’t as deep as D&D and play in the Tolkien world.

Barry:
[6:19] Oh, absolutely. You know, I’m talking about what I would want for me. I absolutely understand that other people might be seduced to buy another fantasy system. But if I’m going to do something different, then I would kind of want it to Be sufficiently different. And I don’t feel like having a kind of similar, albeit different setting would Push those buttons for me.

Mark:
[6:41] Okay, I wonder whether then, Stephen, you can sell Earthdawn to Barry on a quick Pitch and see whether you can get him to…

Stephen:
[6:47] Yeah, I mean, I think it is a sliding scale of fantasy games. You do get the ones that are very much D&D clones, but Earthdawn, I think, is quite a long way away from D&D.

Barry:
[6:56] That’s interesting.

Stephen:
[6:57] Played like things called windlings they’re kind of fairy creatures or creatures Made of rock everyone’s got magic in it rather than just the magic users it’s Very cthulhu crossover as well so it has a crossover with non-fantasy so it Is different to dnd but it is a fantasy game where you use swords and shields and because.

Mark:
[7:15] We do know the dnd cross genres quite well we’ve already discussed that it’s It’s strong at doing so so you can play like a more of a mystery or a horror Style of D&D game but the Earthdawn would the rule system would lend itself better.

Stephen:
[7:27] I think it’s yeah when it comes to that D&D has a very specific way of approaching Things like dungeons and adventures when Earthdawn it’s different the way it Wants you to interact with the adventure and the world is just different and The scenarios are set up different I think that’s the key I think the scenarios Are completely different to a scenario’s, In a D&D game.

Mark:
[7:45] So you would definitely know you’re playing a different game. It just wouldn’t be a different system.

Barry:
[7:49] And I do get that. I understand why other people would see that appeal. But one of the other things I have to think about is there’s an enormous amount Of pressure on my time. I have to choose wisely. You know, I have to look at the options and think which one do I think I’m most Likely to get the most fun out of.

Mark:
[8:04] Has Hasbro got to you before this podcast?

Barry:
[8:07] No, listen, I’m… Jesus, I hate all big corporations, not just Hasbro.

Mark:
[8:12] So while we’re encouraging people to think outside the box and try something other than D&D. I think what you’re displaying there with the way that you feel, Barry, is that there is a hesitancy, and that can be quite difficult to imagine, Especially if you’ve got a choice. You play D&D, or you can play this other Fantasy, very similar type of game on the surface. But I will go through my other points, which I think that you might be attracted to play indie games for. The different genres in which you might be able to play the games within. So I’ll talk particularly about the horror and survival genre now because I Think D&D does not do that very well. It’s way overpowered now. You’re never going to feel that jeopardy and that feeling that you’re going to die. There are better systems for playing horror and survival horror games and those Kind of mystery games and in particular Call of Cthulhu. It’s quite different.

Stephen:
[9:01] It is massively different, yeah. Especially if you’re coming from D&D, The combat system is, to be blunt, quite savage and if you get involved in the Combat, in D&D you probably win, but in Cthulhu you probably won’t.

Mark:
[9:13] If you love combat, it’s not the game for you, in a way.

Stephen:
[9:15] Well, if you love combat and winning, maybe not, but if you love combat, then yeah.

Mark:
[9:20] It’s over quite quickly.

Stephen:
[9:21] But it does, it creates the vibe. I mean, that’s what does it. It’s the mechanics that create the horror. If you can’t muster it yourself, you think oh my god, my character gets involved In this situation, he’s going to be in big trouble. And that’s, it helps for the atmosphere, obviously.

Mark:
[9:36] And Barry, you did play Call of Cthulhu that one time, but it did make an impression upon you.

Barry:
[9:41] Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Like Stephen has said that, you know, the, the, Brutal nature of the combat like combat is Fucking life-changing do you know what i mean even If you survive it it’s life-changing and you you talk When you talked about dnd and you were talking about you know in combat you’re Probably going to win but you’re almost certainly going to survive you know Even when you lose there’s the combat there is quite often a way back you know Stabilized job done whereas the the idea that yeah combat was was devastating I’d done and the The other thing that surprised me about how much I enjoyed this element of it, The research and investigative nature of it. Like, you know, I role-played going to a library. And I was like, there’s something joyous about that. There just truly is. I think it was one of the first times that my imagination Actually kicked in and engaged. And I could kind of see us huddled around these books in a dimly lit light.

Mark:
[10:36] And it really did that for you.

Barry:
[10:37] Like in terms of the texture of the gameplay as a result of that, It solidified it for me significantly. I really, really enjoyed Cthulhu. Yes, I would play it again, but it’s a question of time constraints. And I find that with the games that I’m playing that aren’t D&D, They tend to be short campaigns, one shots, because it’s around the holiday Season and our regular game isn’t happening. And someone, you know, we’ve got a lot of beautiful, kind souls in our hobby Who will just go, I’ll run something.

Mark:
[11:08] It’s a good time, isn’t it, actually, to try a different thing, Is to do a shorter game. Yeah, absolutely. If your DM can’t make it along and, you know, if somebody offers something else, We find in our community quite often the table, most people don’t turn up because They think their game’s not on and that’s their week off and they can keep their partners happy. But it’s a great time to turn up if somebody offers something new and take the Opportunity perhaps then to give somebody else a chance to DM.

Barry:
[11:34] So the last one shot I did was Hunter’s Hunter. That’s Vampire, right?

Mark:
[11:39] Oh, that was great.

Barry:
[11:39] Yeah, that was phenomenal. Our DM, she set it locally, and part of her pitch Was feel free to flex your local knowledge of which mine appeared to be all pubs.

Mark:
[11:51] Down Woolwich High Street, wasn’t it?

Barry:
[11:52] It went Woolwich High Street, but I thoroughly enjoyed that four hours. Haven’t played it since but it’s one of those things now that if someone you Know offered a one shot or a short campaign um with that system i would jump at the chance.

Mark:
[12:05] Yeah john with that horror and survival genre in particular it just doesn’t Work so well in dnd would you agree on that well.

Jon:
[12:11] I mean old edition ravenloff that was uh yeah.

Mark:
[12:15] Okay yeah that.

Jon:
[12:16] That was pretty hard.

Mark:
[12:17] That’s the way to do it yeah i think that’s probably one of the best examples Of horror and survival genre especially if you spring.

Jon:
[12:22] Out on your players because you’d roll up your character as normal, You’d be setting out to do the thing and watch the ref’s, Glee increases, it’s a misty night and you wake up, land of perpetual darkness, You’re fucked so actually this covers another point I think.

Mark:
[12:39] Although this isn’t an indie RPG because we’ve said it’s anything other than D&D but going back to the old versions of D&D is something that you shouldn’t Really either be too frightened of doing it’s a system of its own, It’s very recognisable but yeah yeah i mean i’m.

Jon:
[12:53] A fan of it i still play it on a regular basis but uh yeah ravenloft in particular I loved reading about it i’m not sure if i want to go back.

Mark:
[13:01] It’s impossible to give that element back into the fifth edition version of Ravenloft you’ve dm’d the curse of stride to it you can’t get there can you Construct the atmosphere.

Stephen:
[13:10] Rather than the actual horror of it there but yeah if you played it in first Edition dnd it’ll be on the floor crying i think yeah.

Mark:
[13:15] Yeah they’re pretty modern day players modern day players.

Stephen:
[13:18] Just gonna hack it.

Mark:
[13:19] Yeah snowflakes a lot of them yeah roll up.

Stephen:
[13:22] 50 characters by the end of it.

Mark:
[13:24] They’d be in tears barry would have 50 warlocks by the end of that wait no it’d.

Barry:
[13:30] Be 50 warlocks and a barbarian all right so.

Mark:
[13:33] Moving on to point three uh so This is about storytelling options focus on character play And development some of these systems shift the spotlight from combat and to The characters themselves very much they delve into relationships more more Dilemmas and personal growth uh so i’m talking about systems such as the ones That john loves uh vampire the masquerade we’ve mentioned it already werewolf the apocalypse mage so.

Jon:
[13:56] Most of those are about the environment you’re in the the people the societies Most of them again modern setting near future so you’re familiar with the setup So you’ve got contacts you do favors is. It’s not as isolated as um say more traditional dungeoneering setting can be yeah.

Mark:
[14:17] I often think modern films a little what storytellers a Little bit uh disadvantaged because the mobile phone right because if That’s why you get lots of films that they’re actually still they set in the 80s where people didn’t have them because the mobile phone changes everything And how people would deal with certain situations but with dnd there are so Many spells that reveal motives that the control actions and those don’t exist So much in these other games and that’s to the benefit of the story.

Jon:
[14:43] So in uh werewolf we do make it In the 80s so if someone’s got a phone it’s one Of those big bricks and it hasn’t got a camera on it that that’s Better but if you’re playing werewolf and you’ve got a thing called the the Veil the some of the stories are you know a photographer caught a snap of someone In full werewolf form that has to be stopped before it gets printed even if It goes into the National Enquirer as a Sasquatch sighting, Those in the know, say your hunters, your leeches, Might see that, and that can cause problems.

Stephen:
[15:17] It would be cool, though, wouldn’t it, to see a word from TikTok or something like that?

Jon:
[15:21] Yeah, but now people would just say it’s camera trickery. But again, AI has changed.

Mark:
[15:26] Everything could be AI.

Stephen:
[15:27] Yeah, just AI is fucking AI.

Mark:
[15:28] Yeah, we should say that with the storytelling games, character development On a meta level is not so important, So there’s less emphasis on that within the system.

Jon:
[15:38] You’ve got to prove yourself. That’s how you progress. And you can prove yourself Not just by kicking the ass of things that turn up, but finding things out. So a bit of research can go a long way.

Mark:
[15:49] But it’s all about storytelling and progressing your character in that way. Barry, from somebody that loves D&D, how off-putting is that to sort of have that connection? Element of the game effectively sidelined or in some cases almost removed the Fact that you know experience isn’t so important character development on a Meta scale getting new abilities and working your way through that don’t exist In anywhere near the same way as dnd well how do you feel about that is that Something that would affect your enjoyment of the game.

Barry:
[16:16] I don’t think it would now but i think it Would have when i was starting out it you know initially i found The role play element very difficult and it made Me feel very self-conscious even when i was you know like six months to a year In i still don’t think that would have appealed to me but now actually i think I could say i’m a confident enough role player i know that people aren’t actually Judging the standard of my role do you know what i mean it’s like but it takes You a little while to get over those that’s.

Mark:
[16:42] Why we say dnd is such a great great gateway system for me for that reason too I suppose it just allows you to relax into the hobby.

Barry:
[16:48] A little bit more i’d be prepared to lay even money that there are indie systems Out there that are also great gateway systems.

Mark:
[16:54] There are, yeah, I think. But they come with other deficiencies too, I think. The more simple systems, we’ll discuss those in a bit. So levelling up, for instance, I love levelling up in D&D. It’s always been One of my favourite parts of the game. That’s gone. You know, That’s going to be missed.

Barry:
[17:10] No, but I also, again, as a more, I don’t want to say mature, Because that sounds really pompous, as a more experienced RPGer than I was when I, You know, um i think i understand more now about how a character can develop Without it being like numerical improvements you know you you can develop your Character by kind of changing how they behave based on the experiences that They’ve been through yeah.

Mark:
[17:38] And you’ve already said that your first experience of an indie game called cthulhu That’s the first time you almost felt that you were playing a character you Could imagine yourself in the scene and that’s that’s the system that’s helping You do that and we’re talking about the storytelling options and that, Genre of indie indie game does definitely help people connect with their characters Doesn’t it where dnd can be far more meta do you find that steven you do dm A hell of a lot of indie games i mean you’re running um 40k at the moment yeah which is basically.

Stephen:
[18:08] A warhammer fantasy spin-off a lot of it is quite character focused especially Um how your characters interact with the world changes quite a lot depends on What your choices are in that respect.

Barry:
[18:18] And we were talking about leveling up warhammer fantasy role play uh reconciles Experience points in a very very different way to dnd and at the end of every Session you were awarded experience points and you spent them across a really wide range of skills.

Mark:
[18:33] Yeah that’s quite common in indie.

Barry:
[18:35] Right you see and that coming from dnd that was a new experience for me and And and you know it led to one of the most glorious kind of role-playing experience Of my life when I stole a horse that was a cart horse and by the end of the campaign that horse’s, Class had changed to warhols because of what can only be described as me putting All of my points in animal handling and the most incredible run of dice that i’ve ever had.

Mark:
[19:00] Yeah yeah yeah so that yeah that sort of thing can happen on the fly because You’re getting the experience and spending them in the areas in which you want To improve immediately session by session.

Barry:
[19:09] Yeah so the minute i stole a horse obviously i’m going to start putting points In in you know animal handling You were like, yeah.

Mark:
[19:17] See, you’ll be quite often DM’d to people that have got a great deal of experience with D&D. Do you find there’s any difficulties that they might find sort of adjusting?

Stephen:
[19:25] Yeah, I suppose the combat is the big thing, isn’t it? With D&D, It’s quite a well-balanced system and I suppose it offers you everything. And a lot of indie games want you to focus on a very particular point. You probably could play an indie game that just focuses on combat, But then you’re missing out on the investigative side or the role-playing side. But there are some that are just sort of like hex crawl games.

Mark:
[19:42] Have you played a hex? I’m about to start playing my first one. It’s Dolman Wood.

Stephen:
[19:47] Yeah, well, Hexcrawls were kind of like D&D, early D&D games, weren’t they? Like the really regional D&D were like Hexcrawls where you just go to encounter And to encounter, like the OSR games.

Mark:
[19:56] So we can move on to OSR then, because it’s not a genre I know too much about. And I know Dragon Warriors gets grouped into OSR.

Barry:
[20:03] Like we’re using… I don’t know what OSR is. So I think if we’ve got new people out there listening, It’s unlikely that they’re going to know what OSR is.

Stephen:
[20:11] Old school.

Mark:
[20:12] I don’t think many people that say it know what it means either. And I didn’t. And I looked it up before this. So it stands for Old School Renaissance. Very much inspired by 70s Dungeons & Dragons.

Stephen:
[20:23] Dungeons & Trails. It’s very much a hex crawl game.

Mark:
[20:25] That’s what they tend to be, is it?

Stephen:
[20:27] Yeah. Basics.

Barry:
[20:28] That’s the other thing. I’ve never heard the phrase a hex crawl. I mean, I can extrapolate what that is from the word.

Stephen:
[20:33] Yeah. Yeah, if you’ve played a game, it’s a map that you just uncover as you Move along. So you’ve got a big map in front of you. There’s different hexes. You choose which one you go to. The DM has a little Map behind. He says, okay, well, this one has.

Jon:
[20:43] A little bit of management resource to encourage the characters to interact with the environment.

Barry:
[20:52] More of a board game emphasis.

Stephen:
[20:54] I mean, D&D started off with that kind of vibe.

Mark:
[20:56] Reminds me of Kings and Things. That’s what I think about hex crawls, the old board game.

Stephen:
[21:00] We, modern games, put the hex crawl in occasionally. I think Dragonlance, The latest one, has a hex called it.

Mark:
[21:04] And each hex has its own individual qualities.

Stephen:
[21:07] Yeah, you’re exploring wilderness exploration games.

Mark:
[21:09] I like the sound of them. I’ve never really done one, not in its purest sense.

Stephen:
[21:13] No, I guess.

Mark:
[21:14] I’m looking forward to it.

Stephen:
[21:15] Yeah.

Mark:
[21:15] We’re not just talking about the old-school games now because they’re bringing Out OSR games that are so common these days. It’s a genre in its own. It sounds good. And these are rules-lite as well. That’s what they would also Describe themselves as being.

Jon:
[21:29] It doesn’t have to be.

Stephen:
[21:30] But maybe these osrs are very good rules yeah you’ve got little books or pamphlets Basically you get and then the old school kind of dnd uh character sheet that’s Been stripped down isn’t it.

Mark:
[21:38] And there’s there’s an appeal to that you can just get started especially with The one shot rules like systems are great on.

Stephen:
[21:45] The floor anyway if.

Jon:
[21:46] He needs to go out should we let him do that he’s.

Barry:
[21:48] Just is he you he’s your dog is he just being a dick i think i’d prefer him to host it, They’re stopping.

Stephen:
[21:57] Their dick then, shouldn’t they?

Barry:
[21:59] There is a saying, isn’t there, about dogs and their owners? I just can’t quite.

Mark:
[22:03] I was about to say, it’s my son’s dog, but that doesn’t sound very good.

Barry:
[22:06] That doesn’t even fucking work, bro.

Mark:
[22:08] So moving on to the other points, the dark, gritty, grim and perilous genre. I must admit that’s me because it’s my favourite genre. I’ve given it its own Category. I shouldn’t really. I’ve been a little bit indulgent with that. But for those who crave worlds filled with Danger and moral complexity these games provide harsh realities where survival Is uncertain and heroism is well earned the tone is unapologetically dark making Every choice carry weight so i would say systems like why i’m a fantasy role Play shadow of the demon lord spy hander which is the variant on warhammer healing.

Jon:
[22:44] Rates you get walloped for damage you’re laid up for at least a week depends Whether you’ve got access to healing magic if you don’t, combat becomes that bit more, We’re not going to go for a warm-up because A, you don’t get XP for it, And B, it’s fecking dangerous. Whereas D&D, all that’s left is a stump. Long rest, bitch, I’m back.

Barry:
[23:06] The idea that you can get the absolute shit kicked out of you in a good night’s sleep is going to do it. I know for the fluidity of gameplay, you have to reconcile that stuff some way, But that is quite an easy reconciliation.

Mark:
[23:18] It’s a mass hysteria, I think, about long rest. The DM’s thinking, These guys all want a long rest. It makes no fecking sense at all. But I’m not going to stop them doing it.

Barry:
[23:26] I’m going to say, not if you’re playing a warlock. Short rest, fuck you, short rest.

Jon:
[23:30] But then you pick up one of these poor bastards and sling them in almost any Other sort of world and, you know, they’re screaming for their mum within an hour.

Mark:
[23:39] Okay, so moving on to the next one. This is film tie-ins. So if you like your favourite movie, there are RPGs that recreate the tension Drama and the action of those films. And we talk like Star Wars has got its own RPG. Alien, Blade Runner, The Walking Dead now. There’s just so many of them.

Jon:
[24:00] Isn’t there? Star Trek always had one.

Mark:
[24:02] Did it? Yeah, okay.

Stephen:
[24:03] They’ve all had one, haven’t they? Pretty much.

Jon:
[24:05] I can’t think of one that probably hasn’t. There was a group, I don’t know if it was an official conversion, but they did an online campaign of Stargate. And they sort of rearranged some of the D&D rules as a basis and did that. And what where that worked online, the person running it had a voice filter. So she just tapped a button, had the gore-walled voice. Really good.

Mark:
[24:32] So there is a weak spot on all of us, really, if somebody said, Did you want to play this RPG? Then I’ve been offered Labyrinth, the RPG, from the old 80s Muppets thing.

Stephen:
[24:42] Wow.

Mark:
[24:43] What we’ve got is, like, you like Firefly. I tell you, there’s a Firefly RPG. You’re playing, right?

Barry:
[24:48] I’m down. Yeah, I’m down in a heartbeat.

Jon:
[24:50] Yeah.

Stephen:
[24:51] I mean, I guess everyone knows what they’re about before. I like Firefly. You’re in, aren’t you? We did Alien.

Jon:
[24:56] That was the most pants-wetting.

Stephen:
[24:57] Yeah, that was good, wasn’t it? I mean, the actual system kind of set up the Alien vibe, and it was kind of horror. It worked really well. So if they’ve got an IP, they can certainly tailor the system exactly to it.

Jon:
[25:08] Yeah, but kudos to the people that did that. The handouts, the setting. It was done. It wasn’t just, oh, yeah, you’re on the ship. There’s Nick.

Mark:
[25:16] What’s going to happen?

Stephen:
[25:17] I guess if they buy these IPs, they’ve got to make a bit of effort, And they won’t have them anymore.

Jon:
[25:21] It was really good.

Mark:
[25:22] I know.

Jon:
[25:22] And the Blade Runner one, I think it’s the same people.

Stephen:
[25:25] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Freelike, yeah.

Jon:
[25:26] Bang-up job.

Mark:
[25:27] They’re good at finding the right people to head the project because their passion For the film itself and their knowledge of it, it’s never going to go wrong Because they’re not going to let people down. They’re not going to try and reinvent it. Well, I think they’re probably not allowed to, but they don’t try. And those systems are brilliant. So there’s many of them. So you’ll find your system there. It’s just, I guess, it’s finding a DM that’s passionate about one particular one of them That wants to bring that to the table and hopefully that’s the one you like.

Barry:
[25:55] So I think you’ve touched on something really important there, And I know we keep circling back to this, but rightly so. It kind of doesn’t matter what system you’re playing. If your DM’s great, Your DM’s great, you’ll have fun. If you’ve got an average DM, do you know what I mean? And a good DM will be Able to make any system work for any bunch of players. Find a game that you think is going to engage you with a DM that you think is Going to be great, and you can’t go, you just can’t go far wrong.

Mark:
[26:18] So if you like your DM and you think this DM’s for me?

Barry:
[26:20] I mean, this is, when you first DM’d me, it was Dungeons & Dragons. When you said you was running Call of Cthulhu, the main reason I said yes to Call of Cthulhu was because I knew you were good at what you do. Turns out I was absolutely correct. You thought I was going to insult you.

Stephen:
[26:32] Didn’t you?

Barry:
[26:33] You thought it was coming. It turns out I was absolutely correct.

Stephen:
[26:34] It was a good opportunity, Joe.

Barry:
[26:35] And it was the same when I played, and I know it was, I don’t want to say only A one-shot because I understand that actually in many ways one-shots are really hard to run. To reconcile a proper story that has like a bit of mystery, a bit of plot, A bit of discovery and a bit of combat is a really hard thing to do in one session. But I knew the woman that was running that pretty well and I’d been impressed With her as a player and when she said she was running it, I was like, I think there’s a really good chance that you’re going to be a good DM. There are some GMs out there who for me, it doesn’t matter what system, What world, what focus, I know that they’re really good at what they do and That they are going to provide me with hours and hours of entertainment.

Mark:
[27:17] It’s less of a leap of faith.

Jon:
[27:19] Absolutely, Greg. but sometimes you get people who can be mediocre Not too brilliant and then they’ll get that one System they absolutely click with everything changes their game steps up everyone’s Enjoyment steps up and i don’t know what that particular catalyst is because They could be enthusiastic about all the other stuff and it just doesn’t happen And then one comes along and it’s glorious.

Mark:
[27:44] If you find a dm that you like go with What they want to play i think the best way to to have that Happen john which you’ve just described as the dm Finding what he’s good at is to not hold him To to have to play something that he doesn’t really fancy dm and like dnd i Know we’ve had a lot of dms come through it isn’t the case at the moment because We’ve got a lot of indie games in play but they know that because the players Have been limited in the past that if they didn’t do dnd they might not have A table so therefore you know i don’t really want to do dnd i’ll try and.

Stephen:
[28:15] Shoehorn like another kind of genre into D&D yeah that seems to occur quite a lot doesn’t it.

Mark:
[28:20] Never really worked out too well not really because D&D.

Stephen:
[28:23] Shines when it’s being D&D if you don’t know the DM, Do make a decision based on the game they’re offering.

Barry:
[28:29] No, no, for sure.

Stephen:
[28:29] Yeah, but if you do, you know the DM, then you would go with them.

Jon:
[28:33] They had GURPS, a generic universal role-play system.

Mark:
[28:38] Very popular.

Stephen:
[28:39] Nice idea. Probably should mention those, really, the generic systems that can be plugged in.

Mark:
[28:45] I find those less appealing. I’m not sure why. I think if I play an indie game, I like to think that this indie game and the system has been very much tailored For what it’s trying to achieve, and that one thing. And you go with the generic systems, which are very popular, I just don’t know. They’re the least appealing game for me. Would you agree, Ben?

Barry:
[29:01] No, I like a different system, and I think you’re right. I think if you’re trying To have a game of fear and jeopardy, then, yeah, I want the mechanics to reflect That as much as the plot and the story does. And I think I like the idea that people have come up, games developers have Come up with their mechanics to kind of complement the mood of their game, And that just seems perfectly logical to me.

Mark:
[29:27] Yeah, that’s what you want to buy into. And I suppose using D&D to play something That it’s not made for is the same thing. It’s just… Yeah, but people put up with that. They might not.

Stephen:
[29:38] But they’re not getting the D&D experience, are they? So I guess it’s…

Barry:
[29:41] You’re almost not getting either experience.

Stephen:
[29:42] No.

Barry:
[29:43] Do you know what I mean?

Stephen:
[29:44] It’s like, yeah, yeah.

Barry:
[29:44] Yeah.

Jon:
[29:44] There’s a fine line between massive house rules and completely rewriting something to make it fit.

Barry:
[29:52] And I think this is probably a really good time to say, like, These are all of our opinions, folks. You go out there and you play whatever the fuck you enjoy.

Mark:
[30:01] So we’re going to move on to the last point here, which is the flexibility of indie RPGs. No matter how versatile D&D wants to present itself and how versatile it’s becoming With all its different settings, It’s never going to reach into the real depths of these other genres and these Other settings that very dedicated games can do, such as, well, We’ve got Golden Heroes. A brilliant game and you can play superheroes but D&D ain’t going to be doing That well basic D&D didn’t know you won’t go there, Bushido which is Bushido yeah Remember those and other ones kids on bikes or Tales from the Loop yeah, These these are you’re not going to get that with dnd it’s just not going to happen you.

Stephen:
[30:43] Could do i suppose play juniors in dnd everyone has to be under 12 and i don’t Want to give them ideas dnd kids.

Mark:
[30:49] So if you were to choose the game that you would like to give a go to is there Anything that springs to mind there’s.

Stephen:
[30:54] A system called blades in the dark i really want to try i don’t think we mentioned These but these like more collaborative Plan where the dm lets the players decide what happens next and.

Mark:
[31:01] That’s based upon a tv show wasn’t it the concept of it i think it was money Heist It’s a Spanish TV show that when they encounter some issue within the heist or a problem, It gives a flashback to how they already have prepared for it and then know How to solve it. In the flashback, yeah.

Stephen:
[31:17] They went back and stole the key from the guard and you go, okay, that’s great.

Barry:
[31:21] Purely on a personal note, I didn’t realise this until about 10 seconds ago, I really want to play a modern day heist RPG, so thank you for that nugget.

Stephen:
[31:29] Blazing the Dark is based in like a Victorian steampunk setting.

Jon:
[31:33] Already saw the punk and shadow run.

Mark:
[31:36] I should have separated that as his own genre but I didn’t because I prefer Grim and Perilous the same applies to futuristic games you’re not going to get Those out of D&D I think this is the first.

Barry:
[31:47] Time you’ve properly flexed your host.

Mark:
[31:48] Privileges though yeah definitely, So yeah we’re talking about the game that the heist game would appeal to you I think the advice is like if a film is big enough it’s probably got some kind Of RPG presence on that now so yeah Keep an eye out for the one that might suit You best and then get Stephen to run it for you. John, anything that you hadn’t played before that potentially you might think, You know, I’m going to go there and see whether that exists?

Jon:
[32:16] Shit, tons of them. But I just want to do a callback to that mechanism for that Blades in the Dark. The way they’re doing that, that sounds…

Stephen:
[32:25] Flashback type of life, yeah.

Mark:
[32:27] You’re flashing back like Blades in the Dark.

Jon:
[32:29] Feng Shui. They had a way of explaining, meaning when you had the old Kung Fu master as a character. So he was still learning stuff at the same rate mechanically. But story-wise, I’ve just never used that move before. Grasshopper, I’m going to do it now. Bad. And it’s all how you apply things.

Mark:
[32:49] Yeah. And it does sound like you’ve sold Blades in the Dark to everyone at this Table. Yeah, we’ll stop the podcast now. We’ll have a game. And that’s what the magic of indie RPGs, really. They’re so varied. And hopefully, if you do, just talk with your group and your Table, then the one that’s best for you will present itself. So we’re coming to the end of the podcast now. We can end this by each of our DMs here, and Barry as well, Pitching somebody that played D&D all their lives or come into their environment And only wants to play D&D and you’ve got your game, how would you convince Them to sit at your table? I start with Barry because it’s going to put your DM hat on.

Barry:
[33:29] No. So, yeah, change is good. Stop being a pussy.

Mark:
[33:36] Wow. Okay. Right. And, Stephen, you see the person the Barry’s just talked to Just walking out the door now.

Stephen:
[33:44] Doesn’t look like a pussy?

Mark:
[33:46] What do you do?

Stephen:
[33:47] I suppose, yeah, he’s just a D&D person. He just does D&D. He’s got his D&D t-shirt on.

Mark:
[33:52] Yeah, he’s watched 200 hours of Critical Role.

Stephen:
[33:54] And he loves the D&D film.

Mark:
[33:56] Yeah, he’s got his Critical Role baseball cap on.

Stephen:
[33:58] Oh, wow. it’s a tough one try something different at least a one off a one shot try it for a little bit.

Jon:
[34:04] It’s not a.

Stephen:
[34:05] Massively long game give it a go nice.

Jon:
[34:07] John how would you grab that person the way it’s worked on the Wednesdays very Rarely the ref can’t make it and I’ve got a couple of people that play Shadowrun Because it’s D&D with major elements of cyberpunk and the magic, They’re loving it there’s another player there that I would absolutely love But he’s just point blank said it’s no D&D, you know, that one is, Which is a shame. He would be so good in it.

Mark:
[34:35] And what have you tried? You couldn’t convince him?

Jon:
[34:37] I’ve tried explaining it, and no, just D&D, that’s it.

Stephen:
[34:41] That’s why I think the IP ones with films are easier, aren’t they? You say, have you seen Star Wars? Did you like Star Wars?

Jon:
[34:46] Hey.

Stephen:
[34:47] Do you want to play Star Wars?

Mark:
[34:48] Yeah.

Stephen:
[34:48] I mean, that’s easy, isn’t it?

Mark:
[34:49] Yeah.

Jon:
[34:50] Star Trek works fantastically for a one-shot because it’s noisy. Okay, you might have a red shirt, but fuck it, how long can you last?

Stephen:
[34:56] But that’s cool, isn’t it? He’s trying to become captain from Red Shirt.

Jon:
[35:00] Unless you’re Scotty, the only one that’s worn a red shirt and still made it Through. Different Red Shirt.

Mark:
[35:05] Does anyone else have anything to add?

Barry:
[35:07] Just go out and play something.

Mark:
[35:09] Yeah. That’s it. Just as long as you’re playing something, you’re in. So the end of this session, I’ve had a little bit of feedback on our outro.

Stephen:
[35:18] What, do you mean Joe?

Mark:
[35:20] Well, no names, no pactro. Yeah. What did he say?

Stephen:
[35:23] He said it was cringey.

Mark:
[35:23] He cringed him out.

Stephen:
[35:24] Which is great.

Jon:
[35:25] That’s the point.

Stephen:
[35:26] Yeah.

Jon:
[35:26] Fuck.

Mark:
[35:26] But I just wanted to expand on it a bit because I think we can go places with this. So I’m thinking a word of wisdom from you before it happens. I’ve got a word of wisdom for you here.

Stephen:
[35:36] Is it just one word?

Mark:
[35:37] No, a word of wisdom.

Barry:
[35:39] Can I just clarify, you think that Your brother is so wise that you’ve pre-prepared a word of wisdom for him.

Stephen:
[35:45] Can I look at it? Pre-look at it. That’s just fine.

Jon:
[35:47] One word.

Mark:
[35:47] No, one phrase.

Jon:
[35:49] Yeah, exactly.

Mark:
[35:49] I mean, it’s relevant.

Stephen:
[35:51] So even the smallest fish can ripple the greatest waters.

Barry:
[35:56] I did not enjoy that I’m just I’m just putting that out there right.

Mark:
[36:01] Say it again though say it again because I think you did actually mispronounce It what did I say you went schmornisch sounded a bit like you were Dutch very Nice even the smallest fish.

Stephen:
[36:14] Can ripple the greatest waters.

Mark:
[36:16] So let’s slice and dice.