Your Dungeon Master, the DM Demystified

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Episode Transcript

Mark:
[0:00] Welcome to today’s episode, designed to give new players a closer look at the Person behind the screen, your games master, or DM in D&D terms, copyright Hasbro. It can feel intimidating stepping into the world where somebody seems to hold all the cards. But here’s the secret, your GM is just another player, putting in a lot of effort To make the game fun for everyone, including you. So we’ll give you a glimpse into the time creativity Thought that goes into their role so you Can feel at ease knowing that they are on your side and Want no more than for you to enjoy the game okay so Introducing the rpg blokes i’ll start with steven the most consistent gm amongst Us having maintained a table with one game or another for six years at our local society, And one day we’ll release him back to his family.

Stephen:
[1:06] Please don’t.

Barry:
[1:08] I don’t think they want him.

Mark:
[1:11] John, if it has a pulse, then he’ll DM to it. Although coupled with his declining eyesight, it’s meant that he’s often been Caught DMing to his own reflection.

Stephen:
[1:20] I wonder where you was going with that.

Jon:
[1:21] Random, but yeah, okay.

Mark:
[1:23] I could have been harsher, couldn’t I?

Jon:
[1:25] Needs work.

Mark:
[1:28] Right. Barry, if we ever think to monetize this podcast, Barry would be no good Whatsoever, as he will never DM. Never, never, never.

Barry:
[1:38] I’m glad you finally accepted that fact for what it is.

Mark:
[1:41] Okay. Barry the unpimpable is what I think I’ll call him. But anyway, It’s still great to have you here, Barry.

Barry:
[1:47] Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Mark:
[1:48] Right. Okay, so we’re going to talk about the DM. Well, we’re probably drifting To calling him or her the DM. And I’ve got a little way of approaching this, because there’s three of us are Very experienced DMs here. And one of us that’s never before and is an experienced player. So it’s quite good, I think, in the fact that we can get the perspective of Barry from a player’s point of view very pure. And we can give some insight into the way that we’re thinking during the game and before the game too. So I’d like to start it by asking the two DMs, I’ll chip in at two, And just give us a general idea of your style of DMing, or just to get a little Bit about what your style of DMing is.

Stephen:
[2:30] I class myself as quite a versatile DM. I could probably approach most styles Based on what sort of players I would get in. I think maybe DMing over such a long time, you kind of do develop the different Styles and you’ve played all the different types of games so you kind of incorporate the best bits.

Mark:
[2:47] So you’ve got your players at the table they’re looking at you would you like Them to view you as another player or as somebody that is an adversary to them?

Stephen:
[2:55] No, I think DM needs to be a DM I mean there are games that everyone’s equal But I don’t think everyone’s equal I think the DM definitely runs the game he Calls the shots and all the players need to respect his decision like a referee in football, And obviously there can be disagreements but the dm Has the final say i mean sometimes you can make a call based on the rules which Is a good fallback i mean that is nobody can argue with the rules but sometimes People at the table think well that’s not what we’d like to happen i think if Everyone you’ve got the impression that they would like something to happen That was against the rules then yeah absolutely i think what the rule of call I think it’s called isn’t it and a lot of times yeah.

Jon:
[3:31] John no most of what steve said is bang on um i do like love the rule of call I’ll let people get away with all sorts of stuff if If it’s fun and it works, But you’ve got to be prepared for the dice letting you down and crash and burn can still be fun. You don’t just sort of rub someone’s nose in it. You pick that up, you go along with it. Certain people sliding down curtains using daggers and stuff. That was cool as hell, but it doesn’t always work. Yeah, but it was fun. We all remember it. So a failure is really good for the story. sometimes.

Mark:
[4:12] Okay, so Barry, I just come to you now as the player, you haven’t had the insight Of being a DM, but you must have an idea of what makes a good DM and what doesn’t Because you played with a variety of different DMs in different games. As a player immediately, what would you find with the qualities you would look For in a DM and what would attract you to play at a table with a new DM? I’m not saying that you would be discriminatory in any sense that you would Say, no, I’m not playing that, but there would be certain qualities that you Would approve over others.

Barry:
[4:40] I’ve been lucky and this comes up a lot. Our community has got, You know, a really rich resource of really experienced and, you know, varied styles of DMs. And I’ve yet to play with one that I didn’t like. I’ve played with a couple That have ended up being quite unreliable. And that’s a big red flag. You know, the table just doesn’t work if the DM isn’t turning up. And I concede that, you know, DMing is a lot of responsibility and it’s a lot of work. Stephen said earlier on, like, the rule of call. You know, the rules as written are very important. It’s an absolute baseline. but I absolutely love it When you come up with something that’s yeah it’s it’s it’s Imaginative but it’s also a little bit dodgy and the dm just looks at you and Goes yeah I’m gonna let that happen let’s see where that goes you know that’s One of the things I want someone to be versatile and I know I’ve said in in The past in past podcasts that you know I’m not a thespian dnd player I don’t Do the voices and I don’t do the acting but I do like it when the dm does yeah, Well and especially because especially because the dm is playing a repertoire Of characters all of the NPCs, I think it’s quite important that those voices And those characters are distinguishable. And, you know, the guy that I’m playing with at the moment is very, Very good at that. You know, he’s…

Mark:
[5:51] He really brings them to life.

Barry:
[5:52] He really brings them to life, and it’s a joy to watch. But, Yeah, I think the most important thing for me for DM is that, You know, the DM… I want the DM to make the effort to make me feel welcome and to make the game… Fun as they can and as a player um i think It’s really important that you help the dm as much as you can it’s like if You’ve got you know spells and skills understand them Do you know what i mean no know what you’re doing With your stuff when you’re in combat like and You know it’s coming around to your turn you should have already decided What you’re doing by the time it gets you know don’t get me wrong the the person acting Before you could end up changing that by doing something crazy but you know Don’t use the point when they go on and you know now it’s your turn Barry that’s Not the point where you start thinking about your action you know we all have A responsibility to keep the game flowing make that as easy as you can for the DM okay.

Mark:
[6:46] So I’ll come to one of your points actually about voices As a DM it’s about bringing each character Individually to life to give them some sense of individuality you Can equally just show pictures of the people That you’re playing but it I think it is very important To start to characterize and bring through the Personality traits and try and and give Quite clear motivations to your pcs doing accents And things and like i think john’s mentioned in the previous podcast About it’s more intonation than accents can quite often um be how you portray A character so it’s the the way you talk rather than just any particular accent On on your voice john do you find that the players engage with that quite well As as a as a tactic while you’re dming is it something that goes through your mind.

Jon:
[7:33] Yeah, a fair bit. So, again, no acting ability or anything like that. But you look at the picture, you read the bio of the NPC in question, Same as you would a character. And you see what you get out of that. If it’s a snooty lord, A snooty lord voice or inflection, attitude, You can even do a particular body language for a character at the table so that The players themselves can read you. When you’re portraying it it it can be a lot of work some people pick that up So much easier than others do.

Mark:
[8:08] You rehearse this is there something you come into the session with it in mind Or defined it happens naturally as you’re dming.

Jon:
[8:13] A little bit of both i’ve occasionally had a slight accent creeping without My real knowledge of it and i’ve caught myself doing it and yet just go with it anything.

Mark:
[8:24] You can bring on that level it’s it’s worth its while and it’s something that you’re.

Jon:
[8:28] Always thinking about.

Mark:
[8:29] So being a DM, therefore, has another facet to it. It’s not just reading the scenario and telling people what’s happening in result of their actions. It’s far more complex than that. And those skills are part of the skill set of a good DM. Stephen, you played Dungeons & Dragons, Some of the larger campaigns 18 months worth plenty of different npcs there But that can be quite difficult sometimes kind of to differentiate between yeah a.

Stephen:
[8:59] Lot of these um npcs will be written down if it’s a pre-written scenario of Their motivations it’s quite easy to bring across a different sort of npcs for The different motivations that they have within the actual structure of the game.

Mark:
[9:10] Yeah and it is worth every every ounce Of effort that you make on that respect so Barry I quite Like the way that this has developed this conversation in a Way that you’re pointing out things that you would look and appreciate in a DM And giving some insight from a DM’s point of view of just What goes into that so you can sort Of see behind the curtain in some ways and and see that it it is all part of The game these skills are there for the DM and they must exhibit them but they They come with a bit of effort and they can come spontaneously but you know They’re all they’re all important and it makes a DM somewhat different to the Player because they have so many other things to think about at the same time.

Barry:
[9:47] I mean, yeah, it’s demonstrably a different role at the table. There’s just no getting away from that. But if you take our current campaign and our previous campaign, Actually, which you were running, I guarantee that you enjoyed that as much as the players did.

Mark:
[9:59] I think so, yeah.

Barry:
[10:00] Well, we could see it. And I think that’s another one of those things that’s really important. It’s like most performances. If the person who is performing is enjoying themselves, Then you are more likely to enjoy it. You know, you need, the DM needs to be Enthusiastic and confident about, about what they’re doing. One of the things that I would say as a player, make sure that you let your DM know that you’re enjoying yourself and that you appreciate it. You know, whether that’s at the end of the session, whether it’s during the Session or whether it’s on Discord afterwards. Just, you know, listen, great job last night. I really enjoyed that. Thank you so much. It goes a long, long way because I’m conscious that these guys are putting in A lot more hours than me to provide me with this entertainment. You know, just. Be grateful, be grateful, you know, it’s not, it’s just good manners.

Mark:
[10:43] It’s nice when people do say those things and I do appreciate them. And I’m a DM because I want to be a DM. I prefer DM into playing. I always have. And I don’t, so the extra time that it takes to do it is inconsequential to me. I think it’s the best way I enjoy playing the game. So you’ll find that with DMs too. You know, you don’t owe them anything for their time because they’re doing it Because they want to. And, you know, that’s.

Jon:
[11:06] Peter. Always Peter.

Barry:
[11:08] No, and again, I disagree with that. I feel like the thing that I owe the DMs for their time is to play the game In good faith, to be respectful and to be grateful for the effort that they’ve put in. I think you do, as a minimum, I think that’s what you owe them.

Mark:
[11:24] I think it’s a benefit. That’s something you get from DMing. That’s a nice thing to receive because you’re doing something you love and you’re Getting something out of it.

Stephen:
[11:31] I totally agree with that, yeah. I think your game will be better as well if You encourage your DMing that way. You’ll go home and think, okay great i’ll make it even better next time.

Barry:
[11:39] Well no and like especially especially if you’re saying you Know this would this was a thing that i really really enjoyed this Specific thing and the demo go well thinking well you know i’m gonna Throw a few little bit things that are comparable to that In in the future i also um i think this is probably a good point to make a distinction Between pre-written campaigns and homebrew because that’s the graft isn’t it When you when you when you’ve got someone running a game that they have written Completely themselves you know they’re kind of putting their reputation on the line there.

Mark:
[12:08] That’s a tough thing to do.

Barry:
[12:09] Yeah, it is a really tough thing to do. And I’ve played some amazing homebrew Stuff that’s just made me go away thinking… Damn, that person’s got an imagination. To have essentially written that story, And then it survived contact with a bunch of moronic players, You know, who have gone off on the craziest tangents you can imagine. I just, you know, I…

Mark:
[12:31] I think it’s more scary for them than it is for DMs that read out the book because They can see everything they’ve planned and written kind of disintegrate in Front of their eyes as soon as it hits players.

Barry:
[12:40] But I think it’s also mightily impressive.

Mark:
[12:43] So I suppose this is a time where we can give you a little bit more of an insight Into a DM and what they do and how they run an adventure. And I’ll come to you first on this, Stephen. It’s because although you’re running Quite often, and I do too, pre-written campaign scenarios, that’s our preference, There is no way that these are running to the book, right? You can tell, really. I mean, this is a bit of an insight just how if one person Runs again, it would be different if another run it, right?

Stephen:
[13:12] Yeah especially in sandbox style games i Suppose you can um do the planning and plotting which is Always good to do i would always sit down and Plan the game for sure i know some people don’t but I find it easy to plan the game plot the game as best i can and then at the Table if things do run in a direction you’re more you’re in a much better position To to then kind of fly by the seat of the pants as it were you’re more likely To uh sort of like just um make things up or try and but.

Mark:
[13:42] Don’t you fly by the seat of your pants in a pre-written campaign because i certainly do.

Stephen:
[13:46] As much as i try not to as much as i can but obviously if it uh comes to it Then you’re in a much better position to do that so once once you’ve done the Groundwork you can then ad lib freely because you’ve got a basis to ad lib on So you know the groundwork you know everything that’s in that sandbox, So knowing the sandbox is is a is the start i mean if you’re sitting down at Table to try and make a sandbox up.

Mark:
[14:07] John you so you are different in respect of uh the way that you’re dm if the Plot goes off in that direction and you think that’s a cooler way for the game to go there.

Jon:
[14:17] You’ve got linear you’ve got railroading and you’ve got sandbox.

Mark:
[14:21] Okay and.

Jon:
[14:22] I like i like working within the framework of a pre-written uh scenario or campaign Because that that gives me more scope.

Mark:
[14:30] If something does get thrown off your reaction is to go with the direction the Ball’s going right rather than trying to say stop play bring the ball back here And that started going in a metaphorical sense because you know they’re not That obvious but you can do those things right as a dm and so.

Jon:
[14:47] I’m riffing shadowrun at the moment and there’s a whole presidential campaign Thing going on and i know that certain people kind of have to survive because They’re integral to the whole metaphor unless i rewrite things and it’s, I don’t have the confidence to do that level of rewrite for future stuff.

Mark:
[15:09] On the fly or in advance?

Jon:
[15:11] Oh, no, it would be in advance. It would be in advance.

Mark:
[15:13] Yeah.

Jon:
[15:14] I really want to because there’s some of these NPCs that you want them to live.

Mark:
[15:20] Okay, but you allow the players to dictate the style of play and the direction Of the game play more, but you’re still running that within a fixed adventure. I think that’s the way I go with it. I think of an adventure as a beginning, middle, and end. If I can weave people through the middle and then get them to the end, I’m quite happy for anything to happen along that way because I find that more Interesting myself as a DM because the story then unfolds in front of me. So I don’t necessarily read so far ahead and study something that might happen Two or three weeks in advance. That’s interesting. So I suppose, Barry, from your perspective, do you find that your disbelief Or your ability to immerse yourself in the game is affected by the fact that The DM might be saying, well, no, this is the way things have to happen. There’s an illusion being set there that you’ve got complete freedom of choice and, You know that the game is really just moving along in one direction how does That work for you as a player what do you prefer and does do these things affect Your enjoyment of the game.

Barry:
[16:19] So um again like i said at the beginning i think i’ve been very lucky Because i don’t think i’ve ever had a kind of dictatorial Dm i think i’ve had always been fortunate Enough to have a dm that’s like if the players are going In this direction i’m gonna um i’m gonna let the story go in that direction And that might mean a lot of work for them and they might need to circle you Back at some point but yeah let it i think i’ve been really lucky that my dms Will let us go in the direction that we want to go and it’s sorry.

Mark:
[16:49] But have you been.

Barry:
[16:49] Have i been really.

Mark:
[16:51] Lucky that that’s what’s happening you may be being presented with an illusion Of that happening you might be making the choices that the dm wants you to make Have you have you considered those things you.

Barry:
[17:00] Actually used to i i am i am fairly confident i Don’t make the choices my dm wants speaks to me you know I mean you yeah i mean you’ve got a fantastic dm Then if that’s the feeling you’re getting i’m the stupid well maybe But you know i am the i’m the let’s do the stupid thing guy Yeah you know and i’ve i’ve seen the occasional dm like You know roll their eyes when i’ve said i’m gonna do something but yeah I mean you know it’s again i’m not afraid of dying i’m Not afraid of failure i mean this is one of the things i think we need to keep coming Back to that it is a game of storytelling the narrative is The most important thing and for me failure drives The narrative often more than success you Know some of the absolute best sessions that I’ve had have followed a monumental fuck Up you know and and i think that’s that’s one of the times when you notice how Good your dm is at their craft when it’s they’ve managed to make you really Enjoy fucking up you know you thought it was an absolute disaster but it’s led To two or three sessions of absolute brilliance.

Stephen:
[18:01] I think, yeah, if you let your players get from point A to point B, Or point C, shall we say, without going through point B, sometimes that can… Be difficult if people reach the end of the scenario and not have a clue exactly how they got there. So it’s a matter of weaving, if they do go in a different direction, To give them the seamless sort of information that they would have got at point B, so we say point B and a half, that you would get in there.

Mark:
[18:25] Yeah, that’s a really good insight into how it works.

Stephen:
[18:27] Well, you have to, yeah, otherwise people end up at the end of the scenario thinking, what?

Barry:
[18:30] Can I just come in on that as well? Because I am the guy that even if you give Me the piece of information at point B, by the time we get to point D, There is every chance that piece of information has been lost. And I also think a really good DM will make allowances for the facts.

Stephen:
[18:44] I was happy just that I gave it to you in the first place.

Mark:
[18:47] I played a lot of Stephen’s games and I think you are actually the master of Recap in a session for people and give him information at key points without Looking like you’re feeding them just to remind them. And you’re good at that. You know you have to do that. I think it’s important.

Stephen:
[18:59] Especially if we’re doing a story-based game, that people understand what the story is. Because there’s nothing worse than I look at people thinking, You ain’t got clear what the story’s about do you it’s kind of like so you.

Mark:
[19:08] Might as well remind them.

Stephen:
[19:09] Yeah yeah because i think story-based games i personally when i play them i Like the feeling that i’m in them and i know what’s going on and i have control Because you don’t if you don’t know what’s going on you have no control over It anyway do you so if you haven’t got clear what you’re doing then you’re just Going to go along with it so.

Mark:
[19:24] The benefit of your game yeah.

Barry:
[19:25] So i agree and i think it’s a really important thing for dm to do you Remember some of these campaigns have been going on for 18 months two years if you’re Expecting a dullard like me to remember something that happened like more than Three or four weeks ago then yeah so i love a recap and i love it like you say When a dm just kind of gently lets you know you do actually have a piece of Information that’s relevant here and i can see that you haven’t remembered it So just have a little from.

Mark:
[19:47] A dm’s perspective that is really awkward actually.

Stephen:
[19:50] To have to do that i don’t like it but you don’t like it sometimes it’s vital You they’re giving him the item and he’s just carrying it around he just hasn’t Realized it and john i’ve.

Mark:
[19:59] Seen you let people sink and not come back to the surface under situations like That you are you are ruthless go to be honest i.

Jon:
[20:05] I can be yeah um but yeah when things are really absolutely tits up it’s the Temptation is to just you know nuke it from orbit start again.

Mark:
[20:21] Or have an mpc on standby it doesn’t matter what it is that just can say something And put some information back into the discussion.

Jon:
[20:30] That’s the, again, that’s the distinction between the sandbox, Linear and railroad. You don’t want to railroad. Sometimes you’ll have to with certain groups or certain players, Individuals, but linear, The amount of times a plot has been completely bipartisan, they’ve done exactly The right thing, but with the application of, I don’t know, a mind reading spell or some, Stuff like that and they’ve just to the end and hang on i’ve still got like Half the campaign book here.

Stephen:
[21:03] And you’ve just i was Gonna say yeah there’s a lot of um pre-written scenarios actually put in npcs With a direct responsibility to direct the pcs A lot of them do um especially in more sandboxy games you’ll meet a pc that Will give you a quest or will give you a direction to go in so it’s not unless You say no i don’t want to do that quest but there’ll be someone else coming Up with a quest you’ll end up doing so it’s a form of al-roading it is but i Mean it comes down to it scenarios are i have their they have their boundaries and.

Barry:
[21:32] Well you know stories have beginning a middle and an end yeah and you know if You’re playing a campaign there does need to be some sense that it’s moving Forward you’re buying into.

Mark:
[21:41] That right there’s a player.

Barry:
[21:43] Yeah absolutely you’re buying into it as a player and i you know it’s it’s it Isn’t again you know you know i have nothing but respect for dms it’s a lot Of responsibility it’s a lot of work it looks sometimes i think you guys it’s Like herding cats especially if you’ve got a table with six or seven players On it um keeping track of all of those agendas all of those backstories, Whilst moving you know the narrative forward i think is a is a craft that that You know it’s a joy to behold when it’s done well but if it’s not done well It can it can spoil everyone’s enjoyment it’s very it’s.

Mark:
[22:13] Very enjoyable to do it you know it’s more fun to me than playing.

Barry:
[22:16] Look it looks horrendous to me.

Stephen:
[22:18] The unwritten rule of everyone sticking together i know they do occasionally Split the party but can you imagine running the game where everyone’s doing their own thing? I mean, in real life, that might well be the thing but that’s impossible as a DM. People do do it and it falls apart very quickly if everybody says, I just want to do my own thing. It becomes a chaotic mess.

Barry:
[22:36] This is the thing, isn’t it? Like there’s splitting the party and then there’s Everyone doing their own thing. I know the Golden Knights people say, oh, don’t split the party but sometimes You’ve got to split the party. You know, one group of people are going to solve problem A and another group Of people are going to solve problem B And I think for a good DM, that’s manageable.

Stephen:
[22:52] Absolutely. Yes. It happens a lot. Yeah.

Barry:
[22:53] Once you get into like three, four groups, I’m like, well, it’s going to be An hour before it’s my go again. Do you know what I mean.

Stephen:
[23:00] Individual groups? It becomes chaos. And it does say, wow, how do I get everyone Back together again? Because it’s necessary. And then you have to force people back together.

Jon:
[23:06] I would say you’ve got two ways of doing that. I mean, it’s all about pacing. With one, if they’re splitting off, that’s fine. The other players could take Over an NPC that’s going along, depending on the situation. Or if it’s, say, in Shadowrun, you can have one person decking or hacking, Another person running off looking for the guards another person doing something Else they’re all doing different things maybe different.

Stephen:
[23:32] Parts of the building the same goal whereas i’m talking about working different Goals as well and you’ve got eight players and they all want to open up a different Room or go into different areas of it it just becomes a complete nightmare.

Mark:
[23:43] So i just want to go back over the beginning middle And end and the end is not predetermined i Think when you read a scenario it often feels like It is and there is a success story and it comes to A wonderful conclusion but i i don’t think there Are many dms that look at a scenario and think that’s the way it has to end Things can go tits up here and they rarely do i must say because the players Always rise to the occasion but if you don’t give that impression like you’re Talking about failure you wouldn’t want to particularly be aware that this is Going to end successfully regardless of your actions would you barry i think it’s.

Barry:
[24:17] Something’s important i want it i want it to end narratively do you know what I mean it’s like it’s not like I say it’s not about success I mean I do kind Of feel like if there is like an overriding purpose that your you know your quest is for, Then the end is either you failing that quest Or succeeding in that quest so I do think it can be binary like That but all of the side quests And the little things that drive the narrative on the way there you Get players who are hunting for glory they want to succeed At absolutely everything and actually that makes for quite A boring story you know no one would watch A film where everything went great for the hero where the hero just sort of Walked along rolled natural 20s all day long killed everyone along the way got The girl at the end sat on the throne hey that’s the most boring story in the World you know the the the trials and the adversity that your characters go Through to get to that end bit, I think are more important than the actual end bit. You know, it’s like the end bit is just there so that your character can go Through those trials and adversities.

Mark:
[25:23] Yeah. Yeah. So moving on to another part of this then, I’ve got a couple of Other pertinent points that I’d like to just cover with you. Is that you see a new player, I’ll go from a DM’s point of view initially. No, I won’t. I’ll go from Barry’s point of view. As a new player, if you’re feeling awkward, what would you want your DM to do?

Barry:
[25:43] To kind of not draw attention to it, I guess. I mean, I can speak about this Fairly eloquently, because it’s exactly how I felt when I started playing. And I did try and throw myself into it. And I did try and, you know, I was concerned about not fully understanding the rules. But very quickly, it became apparent that I didn’t need to understand the rules Because other people at the table did, and they would help me. So then I panicked about like speaking out and and playing my character and that was really. Difficult I felt very self-conscious you know I’m a blusher I do go red from the neck Up when I’m not entirely comfortable you know it also Happens when I have a pint so you know don’t get confused um yeah I just think the most important thing that DM can do like there’s The confidence and there’s the welcoming like if the d if you if you know the Dms like wants you at the table and is encouraging you and stuff like that that’s That’s brilliant but also i like it when the dm like i know there’s a lot of Rules and i don’t think it’s possible for everyone to be expert in all of them But when you’ve got a dm who’s opening the rule book every 30 seconds, Obviously if you’re a new dm and you’re finding your way then you know get a Table of people who are going to be accepting of that and and supportive of That and that’s fine but one of Things i really enjoy is when the dm just knows their shit you know i think That is that just makes again it’s about the flow of the game and the flow of The story it just makes it so much more sort of believable if there’s not a Rule check every 30 seconds that.

Mark:
[27:14] One hurts because that’s probably my my style of dm and i’m bad with rules.

Barry:
[27:18] That’s not my experience of you dming me i’m not and again listen you know why.

Mark:
[27:23] It’s because i had very competent players that knew the rules and We’re quick On it and we’re very kind and helpful.

Barry:
[27:29] That is actually true. I was the only numpty at that table. Yeah, fair dose, fair.

Mark:
[27:34] Yeah, but it worked anyway.

Barry:
[27:35] And I’m not saying that DM should never, ever look something up. That’s blatantly ridiculous. But when, you know, your commoner garden stuff that’s happening like, Frequently it’s really good when your dm just knows it just knows it and again I go back to what i said earlier like as a player not as a new player but once You’re a more experienced player like know your character know your stuff know Your rules keep track of your own conditions and stuff like that if you.

Mark:
[28:00] Know the dm is not going to do these things for you there’s too Much for him to think about and also that’s kind of playing your part You’re you know making decisions for you or pointing Out skills at particular moments it’s definitely not going to Come for your dm no matter how kind they are now um understanding that you’re A new player that will never be their role they’re not going to be that person For you so even if you saw an awkward player at the table how how do you go About bringing them in like a New player and say just awkward but somebody that’s new to your table yeah.

Stephen:
[28:30] I suppose as barry says it’s the um the acting out your character i’m thinking Is probably the most awkward scenario that they can find themselves in and i Kind of realize that so any new players first interaction should be a few dice Rolls because everyone should be kind of confident about rolling some dice and That’s what you’ve come here for so give them a like a test to just to see something Make a perception test and.

Mark:
[28:49] Get them get them involved yeah yeah yeah and john um oh sorry barry can.

Barry:
[28:53] I just say i think that what steven said there is is really important And as a new player like the first few Times that you make your own decision rather Than just going with the flow of what the more experienced probably Players at the table are doing that felt like a pivotal moment for Me when i was like they were saying well we’re going to do xyz and i was Like well i’m gonna do a i was like oh i do have autonomy and it just takes You a little while to to get the confidence to speak up and then it’s all of That and that’s that’s when you start to think oh well i’m playing my character Now and from a confidence point of view that was huge for me you know that was That was one of the points where I thought oh i’m beginning to quite enjoy the role-playing side of it.

Mark:
[29:30] Yeah and then um if you were playing one of stevens games you’d have the opportunity To do that probably a lot sooner than than in other types of games that you Play where you know you can drift along with the narrative steven’s going to Call you out and give you that opportunity early on.

Stephen:
[29:43] Yeah i’ll just say when i started playing so i Remember my first game i ever played i think um i was to play someone else’s Character who wasn’t there and i think um i was watching and awkward uh and The first thing i think someone got me to do is um heal them and so i just asked Me to draw a dice for healing and then i rolled a dice and everyone sort of Like congratulated me on the dice and i thought wow this is great i healed someone I did something good yeah and.

Barry:
[30:06] Then i was in from that point on but it’s just something simple as that i think I think that’s says everything about the difference between us and because mine Was like first time i killed a guy yeah as often as.

Stephen:
[30:16] I killed people.

Mark:
[30:16] Yeah plenty of them in character.

Barry:
[30:20] And welcome to the confessions podcast uh.

Mark:
[30:25] John your insight on a new player is there any little techniques any tips that you would have.

Jon:
[30:28] Again i’m a huge fan of uh the session zero if i can do that that’s my preferred Thing but if you’ve got someone turned up to a club and, Never gamed or never tried that system uh integrate as you go so you don’t slow Down the gameplay for everyone encourage people to just give a bit of advice Like we said not telling what to do just saying well you know you could do this You could try that it’s up to you boil.

Mark:
[30:57] It down to a few different options.

Jon:
[30:59] Yeah so integration fairly early But most you don’t want them just sitting back and just listening To what everyone else does i mean you do But not just that because otherwise They’ll step back and that’ll be pretty much it they won’t feel included but Ideally whole session zero is for me the best because it helps the player the Ref and the characters sort of bond, get an idea of what’s going on.

Mark:
[31:31] Yeah.

Jon:
[31:32] They expand on the backstory.

Mark:
[31:34] And it brings them in sort of, they hit the ground running then on their first Session. It’s a far easier thing for them to sort of take off.

Jon:
[31:40] They’ve got an idea about themselves, like their characters and everything.

Mark:
[31:46] Yeah, session zero is far more common now. When we started playing, They weren’t really there at all. Even you’d bring your own character along and just start the game.

Jon:
[31:54] I definitely rolled all those 18s naturally.

Mark:
[31:57] That’s what used to happen. It still happens occasionally, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Stephen:
[32:02] It does, yeah.

Mark:
[32:03] Didn’t someone have their character sheet ripped up the other day? It’s not a pleasant thing to do.

Stephen:
[32:07] The other day, was it? Years ago, we had a friend that had come in with all 18s in his stats, and the DM just took it and ripped it up.

Mark:
[32:13] Yeah.

Stephen:
[32:15] Wasn’t me.

Barry:
[32:15] This is one of the things I don’t get when people… That’s what I was saying About, you know, one of the things I don’t like is players who are glory hunters. It’s like, you know, go and play video games. Go and play… You know, it’s… I want my character to be flawed. I want my character to have weaknesses. Those are the things that make playing that character interesting. Now, don’t get me wrong. Your strengths are great as well. But it is where, You know, when the DM says make an intelligence check and your first thought Is, oh, shit, that’s fun.

Jon:
[32:41] Yep.

Barry:
[32:41] You know what I mean?

Stephen:
[32:42] Shit, I’m in maxed.

Barry:
[32:43] But then when you succeed in those unlikely, you know, you have like a, Your character has like an amazing out of character, in character epiphany where They’ve rolled massively high on a really low stage. That’s more fun than getting Eldritch Blast off every time because you’ve got Stupidly high charisma. That kind of means more.

Mark:
[33:06] So the final thing I want to quickly touch on here is the us versus them kind Of dynamic, which let’s be honest, there are DMs that are like that, That it is the DM versus the players. They aren’t the most enjoyable DMs to play with. It’s not, you know, Even old school DMs really didn’t used to all be like that, more common. Let’s just put that to rest, Stephen, from your perspective, And I’ll come to you next, John, too. And this is an ego thing, right? The M, in my opinion, shouldn’t be bringing his ego to the table. He should be portraying the ego of his characters, do you think?

Stephen:
[33:42] Yeah, it’s a thin line to tread, I think, with that. You’ve got to come across Of not totally being biased towards The players because they might think you’re making it easy for them. But you should certainly not bend the rules so the players lose, Which I have played some games that that has happened. And then when you start winning, the rules are bent or things are changed.

Mark:
[34:02] It’s okay if the players don’t know what you’re doing. but yeah.

Stephen:
[34:04] It is a thin line to tread i think it’s important to not be too pro party because You know there is failure that can happen.

Mark:
[34:11] Do you ever fall into the trap of us no versus you i.

Stephen:
[34:15] Can’t stand it as a player i hate it i hate it when you think like i’m against The dm the dm’s against me i don’t like it.

Mark:
[34:20] Or so i would never do that as a dm because.

Stephen:
[34:23] I don’t like playing it as a player.

Mark:
[34:24] If the player is in this mindset that he is and i’ve had players like this and I’ve had them and they normally min-max and they normally glorify on how quickly They’ve defeated the main opponents and it’s all about them and their character And it it becomes they become quite high maintenance, Players if there’s only just one of them at the table these people are very Difficult to kind of break down and to integrate in a less kind of confrontational Way how would you how would you deal with a player like that they have a.

Jon:
[34:53] An example of that in Werewolf, it’s you’ve got the guy that, The alpha, I know it’s all been disproved, but in that you’ve got the guy that, The first, the foremost, the top dog, the one that gets all the items because He’s greatest in station. Oh, obviously you don’t need us to defeat that critter. Off you go. We’re not worthy of the, and that’s it, they’ll die. Well, you withdraw the NPCs, but you can’t withdraw the other player characters. No, no, that’s the players. The other characters saying, well, look, we’re not allowed to do the thing. We’re not allowed to use any of the items you’re not You want to hog all the glory go ahead we’ll wait We’re we’re not worthy you’ve told us this let them Go on with it i’ve had it in dnd half ogre Fighter type a berserk i think that old edition and it was charging charging Charging he was almost invulnerable he decimated everything we were trying to Rest up we was trying to heal or he was trying to do things. He went charging off. He died. Stupidly. It was before Leroy Jenkins, but it was that.

Mark:
[36:00] Okay.

Jon:
[36:02] He was doing that. We went into support because we was trying to beat a team. Too little, too late.

Mark:
[36:09] I have a feeling we’re going to come back to this on a future podcast and problem types of player. But I want to finish this podcast off by just giving Barry a say on, We’re trying to give an insight here on how the DM thinks and maybe help new Players sort of understand what that dynamic is between the two sides of the Game. What would be your advice to a new player?

Barry:
[36:30] I mean, my advice to a new player would be, you know, make sure you’re going there to enjoy yourself, Be mindful that it’s not at the expense of Other people’s enjoyment including the dm you are Part of a team and the dm although they you Know they they play friendly npcs as well as they play your adversaries think About you know player versus dm like when we go into combat i want it to be Player versus dm i actually want the dm to want to win those combat situations Now they don’t have to kill you they can mcguffin it and stuff like that but When they’re when they’re playing the, Npcs that you’re in combat with i want them playing those to the best of their Ability it’s a bit neutral.

Mark:
[37:12] And playing things.

Barry:
[37:13] Fair and square absolutely absolutely and and You know look dms are you know rumor has It dms are also human um nice you know Whether you’re a player or a dm when you pick up a dice you want To fucking roll it well you know that is just i think it’s innate in All of us you know and i’ve seen the um the Mixed emotions from a dm when they’ve rolled a natural 20 because their first Thought is yay and then they think oh it’s really bad for that guy you know Um game over but like i say i want the dm to make it challenging so there will Be times that it feels like it’s you versus the dm and i think that’s right and proper so.

Mark:
[37:51] There’s a lot of respect that has to go two ways.

Barry:
[37:53] Here yeah and the.

Mark:
[37:54] Dm is is another player he doesn’t want to be ostracized and made to feel that You know he’s he’s against everybody at the table and he’s not part of the wider Game and the enjoyment that everybody’s having so that’s his job as much as the player’s job.

Barry:
[38:08] To make sure that.

Mark:
[38:08] Happens yeah it’s um what’s that.

Barry:
[38:10] Their job their job yeah you’ve for the last five minutes you’ve referred to The dm exclusively as hey other genders are available well.

Mark:
[38:17] They are of course yeah but.

Barry:
[38:19] You know i wouldn’t like to read a.

Mark:
[38:20] Book where i’m completely and utterly obsessed by by gender and this podcast Won’t be either but we’re um, We move on then so we’re at the end of the podcast now So i think we’ve covered everything we need to hopefully that will give you A better insight into the role of the dm and you Know so you can understand how it works a little bit more and you can understand The thought processes and and maybe relax and and Know that you’re in good hands that the objective is uh to make sure you have An enjoyable game given as much autonomy as you can be given uh to make those Decisions and create the experience and shape shape the game and the world that You’re in Stephen do you want to see us out please oh.

Stephen:
[39:00] Yes yeah so.

Barry:
[39:02] Let’s slice and dice.